discussion Aircraft Markings

[Guest]

Anybody want to comment on the markings shown here? It has nothing to do with war games either.

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[Guest]

Most curious, US civvy reg, RAF fin flashes, US buzz letter Z. Is it a green cross on top of a hinomaru ? On second thoughts that could be an RAF serial.

 

[Guest]

Not US civvy reg (where do I hail from?). Yellow cross on blue circle. Orange cowls and fuselage band.

 

[wonwinglo]

Anybody want to comment on the markings shown here? It has nothing to do with war games either.

*** The aircraft is an Air Sea Rescue Hudson Mk.III A of the Whenuapai/Wigram/Nausori flight RNZAF,the markings are a black circle with a yellow cross,I have seen another aircraft type with similar hastily applied markings but cannot lay my hands on the picture ?

The markings underneath are lease lend R.A.F being delivered as FH219 and diverted.

During the operational tours of the South West Pacific the Squadron was based at Espiritu Santo, Guadalcanal, New Georgia, Bougainville, Green Island and Jacquinot Bay. On return to New Zealand in October 1945, No.2 Squadron operated a variety of aircraft, including Hudsons (maintaining air/sea rescue detachments at Whenuapai and Norfolk Island) and Venturas (twin-engine pilot conversion and meteorological flights). Early in 1946, No.2 Squadron also began training crews for the New Mosquito aircraft to be ferried from the United Kingdom to New Zealand.

A nice subject for a model,you have got me going Kiwi as I have a Lockheed Hudson that needs a repaint !

 

[Guest]

There were two aircraft so marked, NZ 2016 in the South Island and NZ2063 in the North Island. 2016 had 016 on the nose and no fuselage band or cowl markings.. Circles on both aircraft were blue not black. Period was 1946-47

Well done.

 

[Guest]

A word of explanation as to why so many RNZAF aircraft do not have squadron codes applied in the Pacific..Because of the distances involved, particuarly from New Zealand, the RNZAF, in the latter half of 1943, abandoned the traditional system of more or less self contained squadrons in favour of of a system whereby land based aircraft were allotted to servicing units which remained in the forward area indefinitely,whilst squadrons consisting almost entirely of aircrew were attached to servicing units for an operational tour lasting 6 to 8 weeks. The Engineering Officer of the SU was responsible to the Squadron Commander for the provision of airworthy aircraft. The system was not popular at first as it was said to destroy the close working relationship of aircrew and groundcrew, but it worked well enough in practice. This is the reason that so few RNZAF aircraft carried individual markings or were associated with particular crews. My father served with No 10 SU which initially had Hudsons and then were re-equipped with Venturas. Unless you know the date of a photo it is not possible to say which squadron was flying the aircraft.

Toward the end of the war the RNZAF was operating over an area some 3000 miles by 2000 miles to the north of New Zealand yet in all this area (about 35% greater than Europe) there were only 36 allied airfields in 23 different places.

If in trouble it was standard practice for pilots to head for the sea where there was a chance they would be picked up by a "Dumbo" Catalina. There was vitually no chance of survival for aircrew who crashed or parachuted into the mountainous jungle islands of the Solomoms or New Guinea.

 

[wonwinglo]

Now we have to be careful here regarding these colours in dispute,lets look at the evidence from your photograph,firstly it is not a standard Panchromatic film,how do I know ? well lets take a look at the tail fin stripes,we know that the leading colour is red,ok we accept this,but take a close look the colour appears to be blue,the reason is that it was taken on wartime Orthochromatic film which has the effect of reversing reds & blues,what has to be done next is compare the serial colour which would be black,now compare this with with the tail fin blue,I have seen this colour problem before and it is not easy to determine either,so without any colour evidence we need to do some tests,but alas I do not have the software to do this !! so can we find any more tangible evidence to support either arguments black against blue ? Kiwi what have you started ! no please dig out more of these historical markings I like a challenge and please take these notes in the spirit that they are intended.

Barry.

PS Historical note-Ortho film appears to have vanished,thankfully,into oblivion circa 1949,the Kodak company having developed a more stable and versatile black & white film we began to know as FP3 or later FP4.

 

[Guest]

I have just found some more information on the ASR markings and have revised my original notes on the colours thereof.

In response to a query from RNZAF Fiji late in 1947, Air Department ascertained that the Air Sea Rescue aircraft should carry distinctive ICAO markings. The markings comprised the application of "orange yellow" to the aircraft plus a "large yellow cross". The reference was ICAO Doc. 2480, and this contained a drawing of the cross but no dimensions. The disc on which the cross was superimposed specified as black. Air Department decided that rather than wait for ICAO to be more specific the RNZAF Air Sea Rescue Hudsons-which carried airborne lifeboats- would have their RNZAF roundels in all positions by discs of equivalent diameter. Accordingly an instruction was issued to Wigram, Ohakea, Hobsonville and Fiji on 10 November 1947 for the change to be carried out "as soon as possible and not later than the next minor inspection". The instruction, and later Air Department Order, included an undimensioned sketch based on the ICAO drawing, and this gave a cross whose width (thickness) was about 22% of the roundel diameter. This is borne out by the photographs of NZ2016 and NZ2085 (see below, close up is NZ 2085 taken in the first half of 1948, roundel diameter appears to be 36 inches with the cross bars 8 inches thick) but the inevitable exception appears on NZ2063 where the cross is much thinner, about 15%.

The RNZAF instructions in all cases specified black for the disc. I can find no information to indicate when the ASR roundel became obsolete.

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[wonwinglo]

Neville this is great historical material,and your notes complete the picture,of these most unusual markings applied to the ASR Lockheed Hudsan aircraft in NZ,this would make an excellent scheme for a preserved aircraft in your country.

 

[Guest]

This is a classic example of the photo problems mentioned by Barry. This slightly worn (it's from a book cover) shows YELLOW Tiger Moths of 4 EFTS at Whenuapai in January 1941. The practice of repeating the full serial number on the rudder was a carry-over from pre-war policies. The practice largely died out with the general introduction of camouflage in 1942. Note no fin flashes are worn at this stage.

If you were not aware of the true colour you would probably guess they were painted olive drab or similar.

A trap for young players!

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[Guest]

I have just found some more information on the ASR markings and have revised my original notes on the colours thereof.In response to a query from RNZAF Fiji late in 1947, Air Department ascertained that the Air Sea Rescue aircraft should carry distinctive ICAO markings. The markings comprised the application of "orange yellow" to the aircraft plus a "large yellow cross". The reference was ICAO Doc. 2480, and this contained a drawing of the cross but no dimensions. The disc on which the cross was superimposed specified as black. Air Department decided that rather than wait for ICAO to be more specific the RNZAF Air Sea Rescue Hudsons-which carried airborne lifeboats- would have their RNZAF roundels in all positions by discs of equivalent diameter. Accordingly an instruction was issued to Wigram, Ohakea, Hobsonville and Fiji on 10 November 1947 for the change to be carried out "as soon as possible and not later than the next minor inspection". The instruction, and later Air Department Order, included an undimensioned sketch based on the ICAO drawing, and this gave a cross whose width (thickness) was about 22% of the roundel diameter. This is borne out by the photographs of NZ2016 and NZ2085 (see below, close up is NZ 2085 taken in the first half of 1948, roundel diameter appears to be 36 inches with the cross bars 8 inches thick) but the inevitable exception appears on NZ2063 where the cross is much thinner, about 15%.

The RNZAF instructions in all cases specified black for the disc. I can find no information to indicate when the ASR roundel became obsolete.

My interest in this topic, is that my late father and a group of his friends. Purchased 016 shown in your photograph, from the then Air Station Taeiri, wher the outer wing panel and engines were removed and onsold. The aircraft fully intact was then taken to a Presbyterian Bible Class Camp site at Tirohunga. Where it was used as a bunck room until destroyed by fire around about 1968. It was rumored that the aircraft was still fuelled and this was sold to National Airways Corporation (NAC) at a substatial profit, that exceeded the purchase price.