discussion Did all that fancy camouflage work?

[stona]

Did all those fancy WW2 camouflage schemes really work. Whilst looking for evidence of Luftwaffe pilots failing to jettison their drop tanks before combat I came across this section in a P-47 combat report.

Given that the report was written by leading USAAF ace Lt Col Gabreski I think it's safe to say that the camouflage on that particular Bf109 saved the pilot's life.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Interesting, I love reading stuff from the past wars, specially stuff like this. Imagine how he felt seeing it, then losing it..

Anything more to share?

 

[stona]

Well you're lucky because there are many of these reports available online here.

P-47 Encounter Reports

Happy reading!

I was also wading through loads of 8thAF documents which luckily for you aren't online. Talk about looking for needles in haystacks.

cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Great stuff Steve, thanks for taking the time to share it!

 

[Guest]

I wonder then what the reason was that the USAAF kept some planes in bare metal? Was this after air supremicy was achieved?

I will say this, I was looking at a Hunter while on the ground with the grey/green collours on it and even in Africa that is generaly brown it is amazing how it blends into the background.

Theuns

 

[stona]

I wonder then what the reason was that the USAAF kept some planes in bare metal? Was this after air supremicy was achieved? Theuns

Yes. It also saved time and money during production.

Luftwaffe FIGHTER camouflage evolved from pre-war early greens (70/71) to conceal on the ground, through the BoB era grey and green (71/02) to an air superiority mix of greys (74/75) which were more suitable for the increased altitude of operations at this period. There were exceptions,particularly on the Eastern Front where some units modified the standard grey scheme with greens and browns. This reflected the terrain and the much lower levels at which they found themselves operating in this theatre.All the desert schemes were based on a sandy brown colour for obvious reasons.

Finally,as the allies established air superiority the schemes reverted to green or green/brown combinations (81/82/83),sometimes with grey, once again for ground concealment. It was probably one of these late combinations that saved the pilot of the Bf109 that Gabreski was trying to line up.

That's a little over simplified but it demonstrates the trends and the reasons for the changes.

Cheers

Steve

 

[AlanG]

I wonder then what the reason was that the USAAF kept some planes in bare metal? Was this after air supremicy was achieved?

They found that at the high altitudes that they were flying at the olive green camo colour was useless. It also added alot of weight to the aircraft and by removing the paint and having the natural metal 'colour' they increased the speed and agility of the aircraft. I'm sure i've seen it written somewhere that removing the OG paint from the B-17 increased it's speed by 30mph or something like that and also increased it's fuel efficiency

 

[stona]

The weight penalty was a few hundred pounds and the speed gain I've read ,for a B-17,was a bit less than that,around 10 mph. The real gain was in cut production times. It's why later B-17s,with the exception of the horizontal stringers, have unprimed interiors. They simply weren't built to last as they didn't have to be. They would be lost or the war would be over before considerations like dissimilar metal corrosion would be a factor.

Bombers on all sides were never camouflaged for concealment in the air with the exception of underside colours designed to make them less visible from the ground,usually "black" on aircraft operating at night or the familiar blues,greys and blue/greens of daytime bombers.

Land based bombers were camouflaged for concealment on the ground. The RAF never altered the Dark Earth/ Dark Green scheme and Luftwaffe bombers and transports carried RLM 70/71 until its replacement (actually a substitution) by later colours in the 80s range. Maritime aircraft were camouflaged for concealment against the sea.

The B-17s were always going to be visible in the air,in daylight,no matter what colour they were painted. They didn't need concealing on the ground because noone was bombing their bases.

The RLM tried to cut production times by reducing the areas finished in a camouflage colour. A large scale trial using 50 aircraft was planned and Focke-Wulf were to carry this out at their Sorau factory. The Telex sent to Focke -Wulf and dated 30/6/44 said "in order to save labour and materials it is planned in future to omit camouflage paint on the underside of aircraft". A further communication asks "please advise us when the first aircraft in the finish as per instructions in previous correspondence will be delivered and how much labour time and materials will be saved by this measure" The bare metal was still primed with "the 119D primer of Messrs. Warnecke and Bohm". I've tried to look that up with no luck. I'm sure it is a clear laquer for metal presumably from group 19.

There is also a note on a Messerschmitt painting schedule for the Me262,dated 20/7/44, that only steel and timber components on the underside should be painted,presumably for the same reasons.

They never considered omitting the upper camouflage colours but then their airfields were being bombed and strafed on a regular basis.

As an aside,whilst looking for that laquer I found an instruction for the treatment of exhaust pipes common to all aircraft types. It makes for interesting reading.

"Exhaust pipes will be rubbed down with engine oil and painted with Kernick Black from G.Collardin,Cologne Braunsfeld"

I don't know what "Kernick Black" was,maybe something like the stuff my Grandma used on the fire place. I wonder if anyone bothered with this instruction once the war heated up,even if they could still get the product.

Cheers

Steve (I will find that primer!)

 

[Guest]

Steve, I was reading somewhere that the mottling on the German planes , be it splinter or desert cammo was mostly aplied after the crosses and other markings were aplied.That would then explain why the mottles hardly ever seem to "flow" under any markings.

Any truth in this??

Will be good to know when I start painting the 109

Theuns

 

[stona]

This is true up to a point. On most Bf109Es the mottle was applied by the units in the field and would certainly go around markings unless they deliberately wanted to overspray them like this. They started doing this after the fall of France during the Battle of Britain.

The Luftwaffe thought that the white borders to the Balkenkreuz was far to visible,I think some units got a bit paranoid about it! There was plenty of this sort of thing going on.

On later aircraft the mottle was factory applied. It's quite distinctive and you can often tell where an aircraft was manufactured by the mottle style. However the style of Balkenkreuz with the white and black border,or later white border,around the black cross was applied early in the production process before the camouflage.The aircrafts Werk Nummer was painted in a presumably temporary white distemper across the centre of the fuselage cross.

The crosses must have been masked when the camouflage was applied as some mottle appears to butt up to the marking as in this picture. See the lower side of the left arm of the cross.

There is no doubt that even the factory mottled schemes were also sometimes adjusted at unit level too. I remember some pictures of a Bf109F-2 in Prien's history of JG53 taken a few months apart and they don't look like the same aircraft!

The final,simplified crosses were the outline versions and these look like they were applied over the camouflage. They were supposed to have a fill of the darker camouflage colour like this.

That lower surface colour visible in front of the "8", thanks to this later Messeschmitt Regensburg scheme,is either the mythical RLM84 or just a late war dodgy version of RLM76.

Sometimes the outlines just got sprayed over the mottle.

Whether the markings were applied and masked prior to the camouflage application or applied over the camouflage the result is much the same. For a model you can simply spray your crosses or apply the decals over the camouflage scheme

Aircraft numbers, Gruppe identifiers,tactical or theatre markings,personal and unit emblems including victory markings as well as rank markings on Stab aircraft were all applied after an aircraft was delivered to a unit.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

What would we do without you knowhow Steve!

It again is purly a question of no-one being able to say thet a model's paint is incorrect without clear pix as it seems there were just to many variations.

I will aply the 109's decals over the paint, thanx for the very usefull info.

Theuns

 

[stona]

You simply can't beat a good picture!

As far a the factory schemes,including the mottling it would be wrong to assume they were random. They definitely follow a style,as if the sprayers were following some kind of guide,whilst not being identical.Erla camouflage is easy to spot,seperating Regensburg from Wiener Neustadt is a bit trickier. It doesn't help that all the plants altered the schemes from time to time throughout the war.

The same applies more generally for unit applied "adjustments". A good example is JG2 during the BoB. Whilst everyone else was spraying some form of mottle,lines or squiggles on the sides of their aicraft (and sometimes the wings,look at Priller's machine,the first picture in my previous post) JG2 got out the brushes and applied a dark green stipple to the sides of theirs. No two are the same but they are all quite distinctly from JG2.

Cheers

Steve

 

[AlanG]

The weight penalty was a few hundred pounds and the speed gain I've read ,for a B-17,was a bit less than that,around 10 mph.

I stand (well sit actually) corrected. Thanks as always Steve..... i knew it saved weight though lol

 

[stona]

Hi Allyne,that's just what I read,I can't claim that figure to be any more correct than yours and I'm not even sure what the source was. Either way they went faster!

Cheers

Steve

 

[AlanG]

I'm sure i read the info in the Eighth Air Force - Donald L Miller..... excellent book by the way