Badder's hurricane ?

[Alan 45]

Here's a picture of Bader's Hurricane (replica) as a gate guardian at RAF Coltishall.

Thanks for that Andy she's a beauty I love the hurricane I think she looks much better than the spitfire

[Guest]

Is there really a proper model of bader's hurricane in 1:48? if so, I have never seen it.

John

[Alan 45]

Is there really a proper model of bader's hurricane in 1:48? if so, I have never seen it.John

No john there's not but you can jury rig the decals to make one

[flyjoe180]

Hasegawa did Bader's Hurricane in 1/48 scale http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028117 (kit dated 2002)

[Alan 45]

Hasegawa did Bader's Hurricane in 1/48 scale http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028117 (kit dated 2002)

Yes I saw that but it don't think you can get it now , the only other ones I saw in this scale was airfix and another one with Russian markings neither had the decals I needed to build Bader's

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

My next project is a pair of PCM hurris, one of which will be Bader's kite. My BoB project wouldn't really be complete without the guy, although reading the accounts of people who have met him, or worked with him he sounds a pretty unlikeable character. Still, those under his command do say he was an inspirational leader and an exceptional pilot. And obviously to overcome the difficulties he faced after the accident is nothing short of a miracle, a true story of complete and utter determination.

My other Hurricane will either be of 32 sqn which was based at Biggin during the early part of the battle and happens to be very close to where I live, or a tribute to 25% or so non-British pilots who fought for the free world and this country during the battle and will probably be from a Polish squadron.

I wish you all the best with the hunt for the Bader decals for your 1/48 project and look forward to the seeing another great model.

All the best

Paul

[stona]

Opinions of Bader from other pilots.

'Douglas Bader was completely wrong on tactics at the time. He was very brave but he'd been out of the air force for ten years. He lagged completely behind in modern concepts. All he could think of, as far as I could see, was the old World War I flying circuses, which had nothing to do with what we were up against in the Battle of Britain.'

'I remember at least one occasion when there were no hostile plots on the table and yet some of our chaps were shot down. It was, therefore, very important for a fighter leader to obey the controller's instructions, so that, down in the hole, he would know exactly where the leader was. If, like Douglas [bader] , you went darting about all over the place, it upset the whole plotting table.'

Squadron Leader (later A.C.M.) Harry Broadhurst.

'Douglas Bader wanted control by Fighter Command, by Dowding himself in the last resort. But as Commander in Chief, Dowding was far to preoccupied with strategic problems to follow the battle blow by blow. He left that to his Group Commanders. "Bader's suggestion beats the band" was Park's subsequent comment. "It would have been impossible for one controller to handle fifty squadrons".

Group Captain Peter Townsend.

'My own later experience on both offensive and defensive operations confirmed that two squadrons of fighters was the ideal number to lead in the air'

Wing Commander 'Johnnie' Johnson

The above reflect Bader's fundamental lack of understanding of how the modern (in 1940) Fighter Command system worked. A junior squadron leader, out of the air force for many years presumed to know better than the very men who had designed the system. Park had been involved in Fighter Command's predecessor (Air Defence of Great Britain) since 1926.

Nobody, then or now, doubts Bader's courage or will power, he was also a dynamic and tireless leader though not to everyone's taste. Perhaps the most damning indictment of his leadership was recorded by Kenneth Cross, another who would finish his RAF career as an A.C.M.

"Later when some of the pilots reached us in the desert we learned of the feelings in the wings at this time. Billy Burton, for example, who commanded 616 Squadron in Bader's wing at Tangmere, maintained that by the time Bader was shot down in August 1941, the Wing was in a state of mutiny bought on by his reckless leading in an effort to increase his own score."

Bader is like Marmite. You can take the sugar coated "Reach for the Sky" version or a more measured historical appraisal of the man and his career. He was a bad influence on Leigh-Mallory and 12 Group and his influence far outweighed both his rank and experience. That baleful influence helped exert pressure at the Air Ministry leading to the removal of Dowding and Park. Dowding may have been ready to go and was, with hindsight, probably fortunate to leave when he did. Not so Park.

Cheers

Steve

[tr1ckey66]

Bader is like Marmite. You can take the sugar coated "Reach for the Sky" version or a more measured historical appraisal of the man and his career.

I tend to agree Steve. I think the only reason he's going in the BoB collection is because of the misguided 'Big Wing' tactics which are as much a part of the BoB story as the folly of bombing London by the Luftwaffe. As a man I find the stories about his personality really off-putting. To me he's rather like Patton, another individual who (in my opinion) fought the war for his own glorification. There are many other contenders who drop into this category and I don't mean to single out individuals. It's the unassuming heroes that went about their business with as much bravery but without the ego, and had the humility to listen to other's opinions that get my admiration.

In fact the more I think about it the more I want to forget the Bader kite and do the 32sqn and Polish aircraft!

What can't be denied is Bader's determination and single minded ness which obviously both served as both a positive and negative part of his personality.

I think he's still going in though - flaws and all!

Cheers

Paul

[stona]

I think you should definitely keep him in

The blame for the failure of 'Big Wing' operations can't be laid primarily at the door of a junior officer like Bader. The most blame lies with Leigh-Mallory who not only encouraged Bader but failed to ensure that Wing Commander Woodhall, the Duxford controller, carried out his duties in accordance with Fighter Command policies.

Some blame must also lie with Dowding who failed to understand the antipathy which developed between Park and Leigh-Mallory (11 and 12 Groups) and failed to force Leigh-Mallory and his subordinate officers (like Woodhall and Bader) to toe the line.

the time of the 'infamous conference' at the Air Ministry on 17th October 1940 the die was cast. It was chaired by Sholto-Douglas and Leigh-Mallory brought along Bader. As a Squadron Leader he was by far the most junior officer present and his attendance startled Dowding amongst others. Dowding and Park could have brought an operational pilot of their own to the conference to refute the wild assertions made by Bader (and Leigh-Mallory) but never thought to do so. Douglas, who thought that Bader had found the secret to success, didn't suggest that they might like to.

With hindsight it looks a lot like Douglas set up the conference with the intention of discrediting Dowding and by inference, Park. Both men were certainly damaged as a result.

We seem to have got a long way from model building! Good luck with your PCM Hurricanes. It isn't the most straight forward kit, but it builds into a good looking Hurricane

Cheers

Steve

[Alan 45]

Some great stuff there Steve and similar to what I've been reading about him , I think most of the stuff about him is propaganda , to have a fighter ace with tin legs is a powerful thing to sell to the public and would be seen as a real hero

I have no doubt he was a determined and single minded person but the truth is it appears he wasn't the person portrayed certainly not the character portrayed in the film reach for the sky

Thanks for the insights Steve

[tr1ckey66]

The blame for the failure of 'Big Wing' operations can't be laid primarily at the door of a junior officer like Bader.

I realise Bader is not solely culpable nor the loudest advocate of 'Big Wing' but I don't think a model of Leigh-Mallory would be as interesting!

And you're right we are steering way off the modelling path!!! All good stuff though and great background to the story.

Still, the other star in all this is of course the Hurricane and I'm really looking forward to tackling this RAF workhorse as I'm sure Alan is.

Should be starting next week.

Cheers

P

[stona]

The Dowding/Park team have always been somewhat personal heroes of mine and I have done quite a bit of research into the circumstances surrounding their removal from Fighter Command after the BoB.

I (or rather my brother who won't return it ) have a copy of 'Fight for the Sky', Bader's so called autobiography, signed by the man himself. It is yet another of his successful self promotional exercises and, politely, liberal with the truth.

I believe that the Leigh-Mallory/Sholto-Douglas/Bader ascendancy in wing tactics as the RAF 'leaned forward' into France after the BoB led directly to the fruitless deaths of many RAF pilots and that is a pretty dire accusation.

Steve

[Guest]

Superscale used to do a 1/48 decal set which included Bader's Hurricane (Superscale 48-383) but they're now out of print.

The only thing to do is keep scanning ebay, and one day I'm sure they'll pop up.

[Alan 45]

Thanks Andy , I've been told the italieri kit has the letters I need it just needs chopping and fitting , I have one on the way from the shop so I'll be able to check when it comes

If not I'll check out decals of all British fights from WWII to get them I only need LE and D it can't be that hard to get those letters

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

Hannants do full sets of code letters (Extra Decal) in a variety of sizes in most scales. I'm sure that they will have the size of letters you want. I may even have some in the stash myself. If I have them I'd be glad to send them on.

I'll take a look.

Cheers

P