Scale Model Shop

**AlanG** · 28 November 2010, 16:15

I see where you are coming from Ron. I prefer to have some suggestions/advice as to where i could improve my builds or if you think i've done something good then likewise i'd like praise. I know i'll never be IPMS standards but i like to think this old dog can still learn some new tricks along the way.

So bring it on and yes there has to be a limit on here after all, that's what makes this forum so friendly. But i for one don't mind a little encouragement about my builds.

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 16:48

Interesting Ron, and in a way, you are correct. I always praise the work i see here because as you all know im no expert in this feild and can not pick up on imperfections. Im sure as i go along i will stumble across these so called defects and be able to pick up on them. For example as im working on figures at the moment, i can see seems and joins and am working on filling and sanding as i go along. Now lets say to be fair that some people are aware of these imperfections but are quite happy to just carry on and ignore them. Then there are people who are very perticular in their build and everything has to be correct, like you and i for instance. Now with this in mind and taking both cases to account, critisism may be offensive and seem that one is judging ones capability, then on the other hand, this might be welcomed if it has genuinly been overlooked. I do understand exactly what you are saying Ron and know exactly what you mean. Some people just dont take critisism to well especially if they are aware of their mistakes.

It would be better by far if people asked more questions, the information they seek is stored in the members vast range of knowledge and experience and i always get an answer to every equestion that i have asked. I just hate to critisie anybodys work especially if they have put hours and hours into their pride and joy.

Andy

**stona** · 28 November 2010, 16:57

I'll send a PM Ron ( as I did to you recently). That way I can point out something I've noticed privately rather than in public. I can only hope that the recipient will take it in the spirit in which it is intended. We are obviously operating in a virtual world in which it is much easier,inadvertently,to cause offence or upset someone. The last sentence of your initial post shows that you recognise this as,I'm sure we all do.

I can always take constructive criticism but some are thinner skinned and I'd hate to feel that I had made someone feel that their model was in some way not up to scratch,however erroneous their perception,particularly in public.

If someone wants to,and is confident enough, to later make a criticism/correction public,as you did,that's fine,it's up to them,not me!

As regards advice,I'll always give it (assuming it's something I know) when asked,but I'm lothe to volunteer it unsollicited because this again can be misinterpreted as telling someone how to build their model, something I'll never do!

One solution would be to have something like a "critique corner" where people could post their models with the INTENTION of receiving a somewhat more rigorous assesment of their effort. The trouble with this is that I for one would be a bit nervous about posting something there. One of the great things about this forum,as it stands, is that noone need worry about posting pictures of their efforts. We can all only build to the best of our abilities after all.

Cheers

Steve

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 17:09

I welcome comments and advice any time,its the only way that I will improve in the hobby. Most people wont say anything because it may offend the other person or party. We are all adults here but some dont like being criticised and thats part of life.

Tony..

**spanner570** · 28 November 2010, 17:12

That's it in one Andy, no one likes to criticise or if truth were known be criticised. But if it is constructive, to the good and not offensive and nit picking then it should be taken in good faith.

I asked for my dio. to be ripped apart, but I can see that on occasions such an in depth study could, if not asked for, cause offense....

It is a very difficult one to answer, is it not?

To quote from a book wot I have.....

'No one minds criticism, except when it comes from family, relatives, friends or total strangers.' Perhaps in those words lies the truth!

Ron

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 17:24

Yes Ron, its a nightmare subject. We only learn from peoples advice, critisisum is advice that was not asked for. Quite how you d#get around it without offending people i dont know. One things for sure, we would all be better people for accepting it. We should have a rule. Everyone should be open to critisum and take no offence by it, noone is on here to judge people. Us long term memebers will be able to accept this but new members and the younger generation may not take to kindly. I honestly dont know the answer Ron.

Andy

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 17:52

I think the trick here is that a negative message can be given in a constructive and positive way but not everyone has the ability to do that. Consequently we end up with someone being upset because a critique has been too blunt and negative.

Another point is that using PM's doesn't benefit everyone else, but then again it takes quite a thicker skin to accept blunt criticism in public so as usual it is all down to the individuals concerned. It will be interesting to see more input from other members but one thing I would suggest is that when posting a build if a modeller wants to know what he can do to improve his model then he could specifically ask for that in his request. If members then think carefully about how they put the message across we might just get a bit more out of it.

**AlanG** · 28 November 2010, 17:55

Or they could put on their posts of finished models 'Feedback welcomed'. I'd happily start doing this if it was a sort of unwritten rule that i don't mind feedback about the kit

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 18:02

This is a very interesting and relevant topic.

As a teacher myself I'm always looking for the right words for constructive critism. But being in the classroom, you learn to read students and can thus respond appropriately. However, here, we're all hiding behind a monitor and no matter how we give advice or critisise, someone could and always will, take offense. There's no way of knowing who's thick-skinned or rather sensitive.

In the past when i gave constructive critism to a post, it all depended on whether the post asked for it or not. Otherwise i wouldn't. And when i do in many apsects of my life and not just modelling, i prefer to make the critism in form of questions to reduce such a direct approach; what about ...? did you choose to...? But that doesn't suit everyone and k guess we have to be polite, open and objective as possible.

All in all i have improved my modelling skills in three ways

1) Practice

2) Doing research

3) Taking advice and critism so i'd have something to think about the next time.

Paul

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 18:23

This is a recurring subject and one that I know well from the world of photography forums.

It is difficult to say, in a positive way, that someones pride and joy is not up to it. In the world of photography, and I believe I have suggested the same on here, we had a specific "Critique Required" heading. If the poster put this on their thread then they are asking for, and can hopefully take, constructive criticism. The reader would have to suppose that if the post did not have such a flag then it was posted for fun and does not want critique or the poster does not feel confident enough to ask for and take what they may believe to be a broadside. At the end of the day, only the modeller needs to be pleased and only the modeller knows if they, as an individual, could have done better at that time.

One of the hardest things to do on a modelling forum is know if the modeller could have done better. If what they have done is the best they could have don, then it is a 100% effort no matter what we think of it. A lot easier in photography as there is little excuse for being a bad photographer if you put yourself up to be one. However, photography is, wether you agree or not, an artistic medium. Artistic is in the eye f the beholder so a soft, grainy portrait that is predominantly dark could be art or rubbish.

In the world of modelling, there is still a slight amount of artistic interpretation and personal taste that will colour anyones view of a completed model. It always make me smile when someone will rant on for ages about how a model is 2mm out in length and so they have gone to great pains to correct it. Then then place that same model on a diorama base with lichen and sand, neither of which would ever look in scale.

One of the hardest things to do is to write a constructive criticism. Very often, all we would do is write how we would have done it. That is not necessarily the right way, especially in a medium where there really is no 'right' way. I do believe that it is right to point out errors or things missed, seam lines as Ron mentioned is one of them. However, sometimes I have seen these in photographs of my ow work where I know I have scraped them off and they cannot be seen yet the curse of the modern camera in close up and there they are.

As I have said, I am always happy for people to pull me up where I have gone wrong and I am sure that most of us are. We do learn from this or should I say, we have to opportunity to learn from this. Remember that all criticism, no matter how positive, may be disregarded by the recipient if they don't agree.

My advice to anyone receiving a strong criticism is to do what I do. Accept it, consider it, if you agree act on it, or disregard it. But worse than getting a seemingly negative criticism is to have a well meant criticism rejected out of hand and rubbished. It works both ways.

I would never tell someone they were not right at something I could not do but I do feel that positive criticism is the way forward so long as it is well presented. Don't just say,something is wrong. You need to suggest that it may have been better to have done XXXX.

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 18:30

Nice post Graham

I would feel so uncomforable being blunt in critism. I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from perfect. We're here to support each other and how many people have maintained that this is the friendliest forum going? Pretty much everyone. With a bit of foresight, i don't think we'll have problems here

Paul

**Guest** · 28 November 2010, 18:56

As with everything in life its how the criticism/advice is delivered, speaking for myself as a novice i need it to progress in my hobby, if i keep churning out model after model that only gets good feedback i'll rest on my laurels and soon lose interest. I always try to finish my threads with an invitation to say what you think good or bad.

No one wants to get a reply like 'looks nothing like it, its a load of s***" i know i wouldn't and i would never put that on anyone else's thread but a good constructive remark with no malice can go a long way in my book to make us better at our hobby.

Just my 2p's worth.

Darren

**yak face** · 28 November 2010, 19:05

MMMM, good point ron mate, I think that in the spirit of this forum constructive criticism and feedback would be great, as long as we remember what the spirit is ie. the friendliest forum, no bitching or rubbishing anyone elses efforts. Im with allyne regarding the 'feedback welcome' tag at the end of our posts, i think this would make it very clear that the member posting was prepared to take fair criticism and not be offended, Cheers tony

**spanner570** · 28 November 2010, 20:35

It seems we all more or less have the same idea as to what is acceptable or not regarding comments on posted models so can I suggest the following ideas.

A..Take up Steve's idea of a 'Critiques Corner'... I seem to recall such a thing when I had a blimp at other Forums. Here people post their models and in doing so accept there will be open but constructive opinions and suggestions and folks reading same would not consider the writer picky.

or

B.. Post their models as usual but add that fair and just suggestions are more than welcome......sort of thing.

It would be really nice to bury this thing once and for all and show the modelling world how we approach this subject...Square on and openly.

John, have you any thoughts on this old chestnut?

Cheers,

Ron

Scale Model Shop

To criticise, suggest or advise? THAT is the question!

To criticise, suggest or advise? THAT is the question!

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