Jens 1/35 Meng Panther Ausf. A - Panther GB 2018

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Jens
If I have the time I think Iwill be joining in but I don't think it will be soon. I would have loved to have built these Meng Panthers alongside you so we could compare notes (so to speak) but I've got quite a bit on.
I'm presently finishing a 22" Eagle Transporter and once that's finished I can then look at the GBs: This Panther build, the Tornado build, the Anti Aircraft build and the Ta152/FW 190 build (at the back end of 2018).

I think it may be the AA build.

You may have finished your Panther by the time I get round to mine but hopefully I can fit a Panther or 2 in by the end of the year.

Keep up th great work
Paul

[Guest]

Zimmerit or no zimmerit on the schürzen? That's the question I've been researching the last hours and there's no concrete answer.

The pictures I've found of my Panther Ausf. A 534 had no zimmerit on its schürzen, but they are hardly the original ones in the photos - and they have been painted at a later stage than the tank, that's obvious from analysing the photos.
According to tanks-encyclopedia.com zimmerit on schürzen was/is rare BUT it happened and there are photos to prove this.

I've got zimmerit for my schürzen but should it be applied or not?
My reference photos have no zimmerit but they are replacements, or so I think anyway. Ausf. A had a longer lifespan than the previous Ausf. D that broke down long before it even reach the battlefield due to a dodgy gearbox amongst things, but the Ausf. A might've been through more than one battle and thus might've had replaced schürzen and just a quick field paint job.

I think it'll be more fun to weather the build with zimmerit on the schürzen but I also don't want to ignore the facts since I've chosen a particular tank to replicate...

For reference: There is an OKH order dated 1943-12-29 : Zimmerit was to be applied to all surfaces of the hull and superstructure, including surfaces under the armour skirts. Zimmerit should not be applied to armour skirts, turret, external engine parts, lamps, tools, tracks and similar places... This was referring to Panzer IV and not V, but I doubt they would change much for Panthers? That would mean that the Panthers that does have zimmerit on their schürzen are all applied in field and not in factory. My theory anyway...

What say you? Zimmerit or not?

(I realise this is rivet counting on tank level but I almost find it more fun to try to research as much as possible about the vehicle I'm trying to replicate than building the kit... :rolling: )


Panther Ausf. A with schürzen zimmerit.

[tr1ckey66]

Definitely not.
Zimmerit applied to schurzen is far less likely. But to be honest I'd be inclined to follow the photograph you have anyway. What regiment did 534 belong and where was the regiment based?

Cheers
P

[Guest]

What regiment did 534 belong and where was the regiment based?

It was part of SS Panzer Division Wiking that joined 5th Panzer Regiment in Ukraine/Eastern front in 1944 but I don't know its whole story prior to this because Wiking was ordered around a bit everywhere...

Many thanks for your input!

[Guest]

I should've gone with my initial gut feeling and just ignored the zimmerit - but then I hadn't learned anything new by looking into old hand written OKH orders and such...
The research is as much part of the modelling as the build itself and this is something I never thought about when I started, let alone even expected so the builds taking much longer now I don't mind!
Having access to all sorts of data from just the keyboard is a fantastic resource and the best tool in my toolbox.

Zimmerit-free schürzen it is!

[Guest]

I know nothing about armour, the fact you went to the trouble of trying to find out what the hole on the sprocket was shows how determined you are to get things right, me I would have just stuck it all together slapped some paint on it and called that it. Well done a good job and an example of good research.

[Mr Bowcat]

I would have just stuck it all together slapped some paint on it and called that it.

Yarp.

[Guest]

I know nothing about armour, the fact you went to the trouble of trying to find out what the hole on the sprocket was shows how determined you are to get things right, me I would have just stuck it all together slapped some paint on it and called that it. Well done a good job and an example of good research.

Thank you!
I just like to know why they did certain features and how I can recreate them? It makes the whole build process more fun I think?!
I don't claim to try to be exact, but from an engineering point of view it's fun to research some details - and the fact that it's even possible from home without having to go to a museum or a library!

Eventually it makes me slow down and I think it has made me a better modeller. Not more accurate or advanced, but I have a greater understanding of the mechanics and features of the things I research and this is just about as fun as modelling itself!

[Guest]

I do a bit of research but ultimately I just glue it together if I can add accuracy I do but I don’t have your determination to get it right (or the skill) keep at it mate.

[Guest]

In case someone else plans to build the same Panther Ausf. A 534, here are my three reference photos.
Sadly I don't have the photographers name so I can't give credit. They were found whilst doing image searches and I couldn't find any copyright info.
If this is a problem I will take them down.

I've tried to find the names of the crew and commander but failed. It was part of SS Panzer Division Wiking that joined 5th Panzer Regiment in Ukraine/Eastern front in 1944 and the crew was likely of non-German origin.

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What I do know is that the photos were taken somewhere in Ukraine where 5th Panzer were trying to cover their movement (retreat) against Russian armour.
The photos are very good because they show most of the tools and such mounted on the hull which makes it easy to recreate the tank.
The paintwork also holds many clues although it's in black & white, like the schürzen which looks like they were painted recently compared to the rest of the hull.

I've got no further references sadly to this Panther Ausf. A 534 more than it's likely that it was defeated/abandoned sometimes late 1944 - early 1945. Some of these Wiking Panthers made it back to SS HQ but I doubt this one did.
Someone claimed the last picture was taken in Poland, which I doubt. Someone else claimed the second one was in Norway... My conclusions are that they all are from the eastern front in 1944.

[Guest]

Here's a tip to anyone building this kit in the future and that is to get one hexagonal styrene rod, 1.5 mm-ish?

Here's why:

Step 15, parts B2 and F14 needs bolt heads glued to them.
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According to the instructions they are on a sprue runner?!
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I don't know about you guys but there's one spare and I blew it on the first one and gave up right away - knowing I had some styrene hex rods!

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Just lay it down on some masking tape (sticky side up) and cut as many as you want and with ease compared to the sprue malarkey...
Much simpler than trying to carve them off the sprue risking limbs and temper

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This kit is very detailed and a bit tricky with a handful of microscopic parts, but it feels good when they're glued down and not lost to the carpet monster!

I've already taken back what I first said about this being a quick kit to build, but it's worth it.

[Guest]

Great tip

[Mr Bowcat]

Good to know, cheers Jens.

[Guest]

I've dreaded the zimmerit for a couple of days now but decided it was time to get it over with. The hull at least...
So tongue at the right angle and very carefully it's now in place.
The only dodgy area was the machine gun port and it almost got ruined because these decals are not flexible at all! I softened it with TET and pushed it down gently a few times until it dried...
Looks terrible but I hope paint will cover some of it?!

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I'm not convinced this is the way to go with zimmerit for scale models...
I'll find out tomorrow how it worked.

[papa 695]

Don't worry about it looking nice Jens, I'm sure it would have been knocked or scraped off in places anyway.
Looking good so far.