discussion A little bit of info on a BF 109E

[Guest]

Hello, bought an old airfix hurricane kit and one of the options was a plane piloted by a one WING COMMANDER K.W. MACKENZIE, who after running out of ammo during the Battle Of Britain took out a bf 106e by ramming it and forcing it down.Hurricane

After a bit of research i came across this picture that depicts it.View attachment 17670

My question is does anyone know the colour scheme for the bf 109e as it is not clearly shown or any info on the plane.

Any help would be appreciated.

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[Guest]

I think although not 100% sure the base colour is RLM 76, with the camouflage colours being RLM 74 Gruviolet and 75 Graugrun, and the nose and cowling 04 Gelb (yellow) try p.m ing stona he is usually up on all things aircraft he might be able to help hope this is in some way helpful>

scott

 

[AlanG]

From what i'm led to believe the Bf109 was from JG52 but i don't know which staffel it was from. I might be able to find out when i get in from work.

 

[stona]

I'm going by the illustration as I don't know which Bf109 was involved in this incident. That clearly shows an early camouflage scheme of RLM 71 and RLM 02 upper surfaces over an RLM 65 lower surface. This scheme,with the very high demarcation line, was introduced at the factory in early 1940. Later units decided that the bright sides of the fuselage afforded insufficient camouflage on the ground and added all sorts of mottles and squiggles,usually in a combination of the two upper colours,but not always. The nose is indeed in RLM 04. Graham (Fenlander) is doing one of Galland's machines which started life in this scheme. I posted some piccies in his thread.

Scott the scheme you describe evolved during the latter stages of the BOB by the use of locally mixed grey paints which seem to have been a precursor of,and approximated to, the later scheme. There was also an experimental unit using greys in,I think, Norway.This bit is a bit of a can of worms to be honest.

The official 74/75/over 76 scheme was introduced in 1941,though Messerschmitt appear to have started applying it some months before the RLM order!

I'll see if I can find out which unit the "victim" was from, I'll be able to give you more info then.

Cheers

Steve

Haven't been able to find victim with stuff available on my HD. It is marked in the illustration as an aircraft from the 9th Staffel,III Gruppe,of an unknown day fighter unit. From the style of the markings I'd guess at JG54 or JG51 though I think the latter used a vertical bar rather than a squiggle for the Gruppe marking. All guess work I'm afraid. It's a great subject and story,good luck with the model.

 

[Guest]

Thank you very much for all that info.Your time is very appreciated. I must really get my camera sorted out so i can post some pictures. That is the only thing that stops me posting models here is that my camera doesn't do them justice.

Thanks Paul.

 

[Ian M]

Not found THE 109 yet but did find this, rather a good read to all interrested.

Wing Commander Ken Mackenzie: Decorated pilot who rammed a Messerschmitt in mid-air during the Battle of Britain - Obituaries, News - The Independent

Ian M

 

[stona]

It seems this incident occured in October 1940. Well my guess at a unit above can't be correct. I can't think of a Jagdgeschwader operating against Britain at this late a date which was still using this unaltered scheme! Most had started mucking about with it by June/July. I'm afraid either the illustrater has been a little "open" in his interpretation or I've missed something.

None of this should matter for your model,you should go with what you fancy! If you replicate the machine in the illustration I reckon that will look great.

If you are bothered about replicating the exact machine I'll be home next Monday (end of tour in sight) and am more than happy to have a rummage in my "library" to see if I can turn something up for you. It might be more of an RAF question so I can also "phone a friend" then as well.

Incidentally the mixed grey schemes Ron mentioned were appearing,described very badly in crashed enemy aircraft reports,by this time but not with the high demarcation and lack of side mottle. Definitely go with 71/02 over 65.

Cheers

Steve (from a pleasantly warm Lisbon.....yesterday Cordoba at 45 degrees....phew!)

 

[Guest]

Thank you again. I can see that you have all gone out of your way somewhat to help me out and for that you have my thanks. What for me was a paragraph on the back of the instruction sheet has turned into a very interesting search which adds to the building of an "ordinary" model. I mean when painting the pilot instead of being a small piece of plastic you can put a face and name to it and the story that ties into the history of that plane. As a final request i checked out stona's post in fenlanders airfix post and if i did it in this scheme would it be a million miles out,View attachment 17696 or close enough?. Obviously the markings would be different.Also a yellow nose.

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[stona]

That's exactly the scheme I think the illustrator has gone for so you'd be spot on.Aircraft camouflage schemes were infact strictly regulated by the RLM (Reich Air Ministry) who approved proposals from the various manufacturers. What makes the Luftwaffe so interesting is that,unlike the RAF,individual units altered these finishes to a greater or lesser extent. This did NOT meet with RLM approval but the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe seem happy to allow their units to make any alterations that they deemed advantageous. Some correspondence survives which gives an indication of just how miffed the RLM was with this tampering with their carefully designed and researched finishes but nothing was really done,by the Luftwaffe, to prevent it.

The RLM numbers I gave you are simply the code numbers given by the RLM to different coloured aircraft laquers. A quick google should find some colour charts,if you get stuck just ask here. Many manufacturers make equivalents. I use acrylic paints and would recommend "Xtracrylix" for the best colour matches but there are many options.

I'm sure we all would say that noone is going out of their way,it's what a good forum is for and this is a good one!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

This did NOT meet with RLM approval but the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe seem happy to allow their units to make any alterations that they deemed advantageous. Some correspondence survives which gives an indication of just how miffed the RLM was with this tampering with their carefully designed and researched finishes but nothing was really done,by the Luftwaffe, to prevent it.Cheers

Steve

Reading this just reminded me of the Armstrong and Miller RAF Airmen sketch

'Anyway, have to go and see the group captain, he's not happy'

'Why?'

'Oh I don't know, something about painting my Spitfire yellow, apparently it's not allowed!'

Link above for those unfamiliar, worth watching, it's a real treat.

 

[Guest]

In case anyone is interested in the incident between mackenzies hurricane and the 109, there were two possible candidates the first was a fighter from JG27 machine noted as lost in the channel and the second is a JG53 aircraft recorded as abandoned off Boulogne. the hurricane serial no was V6799; coded SD-X.

scott