discussion A message to all

[spanner570]

I would like to invite any thoughts and suggestions on the following:-

Over the last few days I have been in touch with a forum member. the contents of these messages are, and will remain private.

However, in a reply to me the person did make some reasoned and valid points and it is these I would like to share with you all.

Because we are a friendly lot it sometimes appears we have almost become frightened of making a public criticism of a model when it is justified, for fear of appearing 'picky', and that too much praise is given when perhaps pointing out any short comings would be more benificial to the modeller.

If a person posts a model he must expect both negative and positive comments and accept them in the spirit they are given..well meant advise.

Perhaps we are getting a bit 'soft' and wary of upsetting folk.

Finally it was pointed out, quite rightly (I am guilty of this) is the growing use of P/Ms to offer private help and to criticise, which leads me back to the essence of this post.

I would be very interested in your replies.....

Thank you

Ron

 

[Ian M]

If there are some of us that feel our toes are troden on....

PM replies to open querstions....I find them rather annoying. Especially if the question raise is one you could also be interested in hearing the reply.

If you what a Private reply, post a private question. But thats not what the forum is about, is it?

That was my tupence worth.

 

[Guest]

Odd you should say this Ron as it has come up on another forum to. I used to be heavily involved with a couple of photography forums and it became the same thing. Some one posted a picture with a string of one word replies like"Brilliant", "Superb", "Great", "Wonderful". Now in many cases, especially on my pictures , this was correct :hehe:. But it wasn't always the case and it was not helpful to the fledgling photographer. I would hope, no matter what ability, that a photographer posting a picture that was out of focus, overexposed and as boring as my replies would know it wasn't Brilliant", "Superb", "Great", "Wonderful". What that photographer needed was constructive criticism to help them spot the problems, understand why they were happening and how to sort them.

I see little difference in the world of modelling except that it isn't as clear cut as photography. There has to be allowances for interpretation. After all, we are dealing with kits that we may not have the skills to alter, reference materials either in black and white or hand tinted to whatever colour the tinter wanted. We also have many other things to contend with, the ability to afford equipment that would help us improve. We may not all have a good local model shop where we can pop in to get the missing pot of paint (thank God for the internet eh?). However, like photography, if you give the same equipment to two different people, give them the same kit to build or scene to photograph and I know you will get two different end products. Modelling, like photography has an aspect of 'Artistic Interpretation'

I personally fully support the idea of constructive criticism, it is the only way forward for newcomers and returners like me. However, and this is where it gets tricky, constructive criticism done well is helpful. Done badly and it can be hurtful.

What we ended up doing on one of the photography forums was to have a section, affectionately known as 'Hells Darkroom' where people submitted pictures for critique. You knew by posting in that forum that your picture was going to be commented on in a critical manor. I realise that this is where modelling forums and photography forums differ. In the photography forums, people sometimes posted snaps because they were an interesting grab shot, a family snap of the dog raiding the barbecue for example. No way should a picture be condemned because it was a bit blurry, it was meant to be a fun shot and should be regarded as such. Modelling forums don't have many kit posts where it was done in similar circumstances.

I would have no objection to anyone doing a critique on any of my builds. I know that they are not great, I can see the same mistakes as anyone but I have yet to add the finesse and have the patience to eradicate all these mistakes. Take the French Armoured Carrier as a prime example. There are obvious sprue joiners on some of the track sections. I didn't fill or sand out the ejector pin marks in the trailer and I am sure you can spot more. Now no excuses, I should have dealt with these issues and some may be sortable in retrospect. If I hadn't known, and I admit I didn't spot the issues with the tracks until I saw the much larger than life pictures on screen, I would have preferred it if someone had made a gentle comment about how I had not cleaned up the tracks properly and that it was something I might be able to sort out with a bit of care even though they had been painted. The leaving of ejector pin marks, well that was just being lazy and I would have deserved a strong comment on that to make sure I remembered n the next model.

Not everyone is me though and some people could be put off if it appears that we are 'having a go' at them. Even though I, and most of us on here, know that isn't the case it can still come across as negative if not done correctly.

Maybe we could put something in the first line of a new model posting that says "Constructive Criticism Required" if we want our models to be critiqued. Without that initial statement, comment as you will.

 

[John]

Its always annoyed me when someone uses pm's about a post rather than posting it in the thread the whole point of this forum is sharing and learning from the knowledge shared you can't do that if it's private.

There's no way if stopping people doing this apart from disabling private messaging which is something I don't want to do.

 

[spanner570]

Its always annoyed me when someone uses pm's about a post rather than posting it in the thread the whole point of this forum is sharing and learning from the knowledge shared you can't do that if it's private. There's no way if stopping people doing this apart from disabling private messaging which is something I don't want to do.

You are quite right John, I suggest the reason for the 'inappropriate' use of P/Ms is that some people are wary of posting in public for fear of being seen a pickie.

Silly, I know but possibly true....

Perhaps the idea of a critiques corner has some merit, but on reflection provided the wording is constructive, fair and not offensive such a place is unneccessary.

As a post script, I hope the person with whom I had the P/M contributes to this discussion.

Ron

 

[Ian M]

There is critique and there is rude. Im sure that the most of us are grown up enough to know the differance and show restraint when giving critique.

I have before (NOT ON HERE) seen things that are utter horses do do, but even I can find the tact to put it a bit more reasonably... "Not up to your normal standard" OR suggest an improvement.

I must say that I have more or less read this forum front to back and can say that I have not seen any "rude" comments regarding our works of art (?).

I do se oft PM SENT or I PM'ed you. :-(

 

[Guest]

Stop Pussying around and tell me it's $H!T!!!

Phew! Glad that's out in the open. It's a tricky one though, isn't it.

I agree that the forum can be a bit scared to criticise. I try to find something that is done well about the models I feedback on, especially for new members. I joined this forum because I had built a model that I was proud of, and wanted to show it to someone who might appreciate it (unlike my wife's "that's nice, dear"). It was only after reading posts and threads that I realised I was at the start of a very deep rabbit hole! When I look back now at the images of the first model I posted I can see so well the things that should have been done better (just look at the mould separation lines on that axle! View attachment 13091). Nobody told me that, but I learnt it for myself. I think we become so attached to these little lumps of plastic that to put it online and have it torn apart would be too much to deal with.

I also agree that constructive criticism is a big part of what this forum is for, but it has to be done sensitively. Like Fenlander, I have worked with photographers critiquing our work, and as a design student had some proposals ripped to shreds by tutors and my peers. It's tough to deal with but it's important. I rely on my colleagues to tell me when I'm going down the wrong road with a design but do I need that kind of negative vibe in my hobby? Probably not.

In conclusion, I don't know. Maybe if your posting a model and you're up for it, add "Critique" to the title. Only do it if your thick skinned, and no grudge matches!

And another thing, does it bother you to hear "this is how I do "something" but there's probably other ways of doing it and your probably all better at it than me anyway but here is my way (other ways are available)." Just spit it out, I'll make my own mind up whether to use your advise. Anyone made any balloon stowage? It's rubbish! Sorry.

Kind regards

Tony B

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[Guest]

I have to say that i agree with tony, critiqing and criticising in my view are two completely different things, personally when i post photos i would prefer if there is a flaw in my work for someone to tell me because sometimes i can get so caught up in the build i miss them which has happened on many occasions and still happens, but i would also like someone to offer suggestions on how to fix it or methods for improvment so i don't make the same mistake again. After all iam an adult and and iam open to fair comments is this not what the forum is for to help us become better at what we do and to learn from each other? I will say though that i have been on another site that has totally disabled the feedback section either because the people did not like someone giving honest feed back or the some of the people leaving feedback were just down right nasty. Like Tony has said i rely on my friend here to tell me when and where i have gone off track and offer solutions on how to fix it, so personally i welcome all constructive feedback otherwise how am i supposed to improve my skills.

Peace out

scott

 

[Guest]

Count me in , when I`ve posted threads with photo`s I`ve sometimes added at the end - any advice good or bad is always welcome , and found the guys replies very helpful with advice like you could try this or I would not do that etc etc , in fact I like to think that the advice I got has bought my modelling skills on leaps and bounds , if put in a nice way constructive negative advice can only make us better , what we don`t need is comments like thats pants mate without offering any positive advice on how to improve things, another thing offering constructive advice good or bad will help everyone improve with doing things different with little tips and tricks etc,

Right then , thats my limited knowledge exhausted.

Richy

 

[Guest]

Who is that mystery man? It's meeeee!!!

Ron & I had a fairly frank exchange of views & as he said, it centered around my feeling that in recent times, I felt a lack of perspective had crept into our replies to various posts. Instead of pointing out the good & bad, it was mostly just good comments. Now none of us are experts (I certainly don't have FSM ringing me up for photo-features!) but we're all doing the same thing-learning as we go. And to my mind, the way we learn is to have our mistakes pointed out to us, as well as being praised for what we do well.

I do bear in mind that for new members the very thought of posting pics can be daunting but I also know that we're all sensible adults (ok maybe not Gern! Kidding!) & we can be left to regulate ourselves. I would expect that if someone is overly harsh for no reason, then steps would be taken. As long as whatever comments are made actually add something to the discussion, then it's all good.

I'm no rivet-counter but if I saw something historically or technically wrong, such as Feifel scrubbers on a late model Tiger, then I'll point it out and I'd hope others would do the same with my mistakes. I really don't want to lose the good vibes this forum generates & provoke a flood of them negative waves, Moriarty but just let's feel able to say what we think & not lose sight that we're all on here to help each other.

 

[Guest]

Who is that mystery man? It's meeeee!!!

Ron & I had a fairly frank exchange of views & as he said, it centered around my feeling that in recent times, I felt a lack of perspective had crept into our replies to various posts. Instead of pointing out the good & bad, it was mostly just good comments. Now none of us are experts (I certainly don't have FSM ringing me up for photo-features!) but we're all doing the same thing-learning as we go. And to my mind, the way we learn is to have our mistakes pointed out to us, as well as being praised for what we do well.

I do bear in mind that for new members the very thought of posting pics can be daunting but I also know that we're all sensible adults (ok maybe not Gern! Kidding!) & we can be left to regulate ourselves. I would expect that if someone is overly harsh for no reason, then steps would be taken. As long as whatever comments are made actually add something to the discussion, then it's all good.

I'm no rivet-counter but if I saw something historically or technically wrong, such as Feifel scrubbers on a late model Tiger, then I'll point it out and I'd hope others would do the same with my mistakes. I really don't want to lose the good vibes this forum generates & provoke a flood of them negative waves, Moriarty but just let's feel able to say what we think & not lose sight that we're all on here to help each other.

Well that's my contribution, I hope I didn't ramble on too much!

Patrick

 

[Gern]

Hi Pat,

Oh poo! You spotted me! An' here was me thinkin' I'd got you fooled!

I guess that means I gotta change my ID again to get away from those 'nice young men in their clean, white coats'! Now, which ID haven't I used recently ......?

Gern

 

[stona]

I'm always happy to share any info or piccies I have but will also exchange specific information via a personal message. I don't really see a problem with this,if the same question came up on an open thread I'd happily post anything I had or knew to help there. Not everyone is interested in the minutiae of Messerschmitt canopies!

Constructive criticism should be okay but it is difficult to give on a forum, where you are obviously not face to face, without the risk of offending. On this count I plead guilty to erring on the side of caution.The last thing I want to do is inadvertantly upset a fellow modeller. Surely here a friendly PM saying something like "nice job but did you realise you've got those undercarriage doors on backwards?" would be in order. I speak as a one time recipient of exactly such a message and can happily report that I was not in the least offended!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

I am happy with anybody telling me that what I am doing is good or bad as when i was building my sherman i put the running gear round the wrong way. If i have built a duff looking model i would like to be told so as that is how we learn is it not.

 

[stona]

I am happy with anybody telling me that what I am doing is good or bad as when i was building my sherman i put the running gear round the wrong way. If i have built a duff looking model i would like to be told so as that is how we learn is it not.

Exactly! The point is that it should be done in a constructive way. People here are a very friendly and courteous bunch and I suspect,like me,err on the side of caution but as you say,it's how we learn.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

As a recent returner to modelling I find the the wealth of information available in these forums (or is it fora?) invaluable. Replying to an open forum with a PM would seem to me to be counter-productive in most cases.

Funny that this should come up as I was beginning to wonder about all the praise being bandied about. Don't get me wrong, I am all for praise and credit where it is due but there is always the possibility that it could go too far and in fact become sycophantic. Personally if, or in fact that should be when, I post I would prefer to be told that I am wrong if in fact that is the case. As I said I am still learning and re-learning modelling skills and constructive criticism can only help me in improving and indeed should help everyone. i.e; if I do or say something wrong and am corrected there is a good chance that it would benefit others as well as me.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Guest]

Not everyone is interested in the minutiae of Messerschmitt canopies!

I think information like this should be in the thread, as it is then searchable by google. It means that somebody sitting down in a years time to try and find out about a Messerschmidt canopy will still find the thread in the archive, and that way it becomes a powerful resource. Do t worry about boring us!

Peace

Tony B

 

[Guest]

A great part of what I do for a living is having to give negative feedback to people in a positive way and that takes quite a bit to learn. One of the greatest assets this forum has is the fact that it has always been a freindly and welcoming forum and thus people feel that they can post thier work and it isn't going to get ridiculed.

Whereas some of you may be mature enough to accept that a 'warts and all' appraisal of your model may be welcome not everyone can accept that and my thoughts always remain with the younger and more inexperienced modeller who needs encouragement to progress rather than completely open and honest feedback. Lets not forget the vast majority of the modellers who post here are not up to award winning IPMS standard and could be quite easily be put off by more objective critisism.

My own guideline is to always find something positive to say before trying to offer something of a more constructive nature and I really would be cautious of embarking on the open and honest feedback that some are suggesting.

 

[stona]

Well said Bunkerbarge. You have made a similar point to mine more eloquently than I could manage. The reluctance to offend is not a bad thing and it is difficult to know how someone who you only know "virtually" will react to public criticism. There is a very fine line to be trodden here! I think a private critique or pointer is a valid use of a PM and I would certainly use that route,particularly with some of the regulars who I "know" better. It would then be up to them whether they wanted to publish the,hopefully helpful, critique or not. In the personal example I gave above I was quite happy to post it as a pointer to others who might make the same mistake.Those early 109 gear doors are quite symmetrical!!!!

Regulars will know that I feel that many aircraft models are over weathered with panel lines etc over emphasised. I choose not to do that but would NEVER criticise someone who does,it is the current fashion and it is not my place to tell anyone how to make their model. Anyway it doesn't make a bad model. A bit of construction or painting advice is something else. I learnt to achieve "invisible" seams and the basics of airbrushing through forums just like this one and would eagerly offer advice to anyone struggling as I did.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

I think information like this should be in the thread, as it is then searchable by google. It means that somebody sitting down in a years time to try and find out about a Messerschmidt canopy will still find the thread in the archive, and that way it becomes a powerful resource. Do t worry about boring us! Peace

Tony B

Hi Tony, I would refer you to Spanner570 (Ron) who is now a Messerschmitt canopy expert. On a more serious note if I ever see a post to which I think I can usefully contribute I always will. Believe me the minutiae of the various german production programs can bore the socks off an enthusisast like me.It's a bit like mining for diamonds you stagger through pages of badly translated,frankly,crap looking for a few gem like sentences! A particularly boring report on the effect of different paint types on performance comes to mind. They got a 109 to go 4KPH,yes that's 4KPH faster....how could they tell.

Cheers

Steve