discussion Banality of evil

[BarryW]

If you don't mind I have a follow-up and a change of direction back to my post about the old chap who helped liberate Belsen Belsen that might be of interest. It is linked in the sense that it relates to the sacrifices of those who helped defeat that evil.

This chap, Bill, was a gunner and soon after the Arnhem campaign he was having a cuppa standing chatting to his gun crew. A German mortar shell landed in among them, Bill was blown back and down some steps. He was bruised but otherwise unhurt, got back up the steps and found his mates all dead. He was one lucky man but was always haunted by what happened that day.

On that trip we went to a British War Grave Cemetery in a wood just over the border in Germany (sorry I forget the name) and I have a picture (below) of him standing among the four graves of his mates. Also below is a picture from the laying up of the standards at Oosterbeck (I think).

RIP Bill - you are back no doubt finishing that chat with your mates.

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[Guest]

Having a mother of Kingston upon Hull visits to Hull were always dominated by the statute of William Wilberforce who orginated the plan to do away with slavery. While acts were agreed for this & notably thro most of the colonies as usual many “masters” found ways around this despicable human imprisonment of peoples.

Not to downgrade it as acceptable the atrocities which have & are being entertained in the world are not the same thing.

The past is the past & in peoples of morality there is little to be learned from this past. The morality comes from the up bringing of children in a world where all are equal & each treats the other as one would expect to be treated by another human being. Simple but in reality it is a slow process. The family & education.

The important matter at the moment is the terror on a scale which is every bit as horrendous as Hitler’s Germany. Syria is intent on every type of cide that it is known. Afganistan Pakistan Afganistan Iracq. Atrocities on the Hitler Scale of inhumantity.

It does not help that we have at Guantanamo Bay detention camp atrocities. I cringe when I see manacled people transported on trolleys across the campus as they can not walk. Why ! Water boarding ! Transporting prisoners in the air to be able to torture them. And this is a democratic god fearing nation ???????? How can we influence other nations when this is going on ?

Britain. What goes on here ! Are we just better ay hiding things.

In my mind it is the future we should be attending to not the past. You cannot undo the past. The future has yet to happen.

Laurie

Shall now go for a lie down in the world that I hope for all others. Very selfish of me as talk is so easy. It needs some William Wilberforce characters.

 

[flyjoe180]

It is scary to see throughout history what people, who are otherwise rational, civilised and decent folk, are in fact capable of when the right atmosphere is created.

Civilization is but a thin veneer over barbarianism (John M. Shanahan)

 

[Guest]

Read 1984 & the fictional predictions are so accurate.

Read about a Hitler exploit. In his retreat Berchess????---- Garden & his phoen was out of order. So he trecked down the hill & made a call from this persons house. He went without any lolly. Next day he trecked down there again & paid the lady owner of the house & phone. As you say Joe rational civilised etc. in one way.

Laurie

 

[flyjoe180]

That could have been the Berghof in Berchtesgaden. Steve will know for sure. Interesting story Laurie.

One of yesteryear's evil meets one of today's evil:

 

[Guest]

My daughter married a German and they have two sons, one 8 2/3 and the other 14 2/3. We visit them and they visit us. The boys speak perfect English because my daughter speaks 90% English to them and they all know a lot about the UK and its history. When my daughter married, no-one was alive on either side of the family, German and British, who had had a role in the war. The war has almost never been mentioned, and when it is, it is as a historical subject separate from all of us. As far as all of us are concerned it is as though the war had never happened (despite the fact that a Dornier 17 missed me in 1943 by about 200 yards when Aberdeen was heavily bombed, and which I once mentioned, jokingly.)

The war is just not an issue, or even a topic of conversation. As someone above mentioned, "The sins of the fathers etc."

My parents had to flee the Japanese in Burma in 1942, just in time to escape the notorious Changi jail, my father walking from Burma into India over several ranges of mountains. They could easily have been killed. But all my TVs and recorders have been Japanese! (However, if they had been killed, I wonder what my own reaction to the Japanese would be today.)

 

[stona]

I have worked quite a bit in Germany and with German people over the years. I have many German colleagues and a couple of good friends there. We do discuss history and the war sometimes but usually more about the awful experiences of families on both sides. We can even have a laugh about some aspects (there goes another stereotype). I have never heard anyone attempt to justify what happened nor have I had the finger pointed at me for some of our more morally dubious actions. Germans are far too polite to do that.

They deserve a lot of credit. From the ashes of Weimar and then Nazism they have constructed one of the strongest and most successful democracies in the world. It's a great country to visit although they do eat some odd stuff, have a poor taste in summer footwear, and some of their much revered beers are horrible

I had a soldier uncle who was involved in all sorts of shenanigans in post war Berlin. He was finally busted dealing in the black market. He "took up" as my grandmother used to say, with a German woman. They waited seven years (I think) to be allowed to marry, as her husband had been sent to Stalingrad and simply disappeared. I remember my aunt Elsa very well, she never lost a very strong German accent and was my second favourite aunt after my mum's identical twin sister!

1984 should be obligatory reading for everyone! Totalitarianism summed up in one, chilling, sentence.

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

In 2013 there are a lot of boots stamping on a lot of faces around the world.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Although I read 1984 as youngster I re read it again only a year or two ago. This time I found it quite disturbing, not only from the aspect of how depressing it is but also just how some of the less obvious aspects of it are actually becoming reality. There is nothing you can do on the Internet, with your smart phone, smart TV or whatever connected device you think of that isn't being monitored, and in many cases recorded.

 

[stona]

It is a fairly grim vision of the future, as seen from the 1940s. Orwell's future was definitely a dystopia rather than a eutopia. This was a common trend in post war fiction and science fiction

Some of Orwell's technological predictions were remarkably prescient, Big Brother is indeed watching you on almost every street in every city in Britain. On the other hand we can still say two plus two equals four, a freedom from which Orwell himself said all others follow. When our political leaders try to convince us that two plus two actually equals three, or five, as they seem to do one way or another almost every day, they are met with a healthy level of scepticism and disbelief.

One of my favourite Orwell observations was about "goose step" marching. He said that an army could only march the goose step in countries where the people were afraid to laugh at it. Very true, ask John Cleese!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

The question of why normally sane civilian people do terrible things is interesting. As a result of my interest in modelling WWII propeller aircraft I have clarified my mind on this issue a bit, partly through some fairly recent programmes on TV, and during talks given by an excellent history teacher.

The TV programmes (and other sources) said that the German people, having gone through the horrors of inflation etc. in the 1930s, welcomed relief. Hitler, a great orator, offered them a new life. In doing so he taught the people that they were above others, a master race, hijacking Nietzsche's Ubermench,. (Being German, they did and believed what they were told.) This led to them supporting Hitler when he should have been seen even by Germans as a tyrant, especially after the deportation and mass killing of Jews. This would partly explain the conundrum which has puzzled me as to why the German people supported the war right up to the Russians reaching Hitler's bunker, when it was very clear that the war was lost. Even Hariss's carpet bombing had little practical effect: raids with 1,000 bombers, each bomber with ten bombs. (Part of the reason of course was the rifles of the Gestapo pointing at anyone who objected). This support for Hitler seems to have a parallel in the British who enthusiastically supported the Empire and all its suppressive activities right up to the 1950s, e.g. the earlier Indian Mutiny, and in the case of the Mau Mau rebellion in the 1950s it should have been clear that withdrawal was both the honourable and practical thing to do.

The history talks centred on the nature of Fascism, Communism, Conservatism and Liberalism. We were told that Communism has at least an intellectual basis: the people ruling themselves under a benign people-oriented government. But Fascism lacks any such basis, being tyrant-based: "I hoodwink the people about what is best for them and they will obey me or else."

I'm not a historian. I just pick up stuff here and there.

PS: Can it really have been 1,000 bombers per raid?

 

[BarryW]

The question of why normally sane civilian people do terrible things is interesting. As a result of my interest in modelling WWII propeller aircraft I have clarified my mind on this issue a bit, partly through some fairly recent programmes on TV, and during talks given by an excellent history teacher.The TV programmes (and other sources) said that the German people, having gone through the horrors of inflation etc. in the 1930s, welcomed relief. Hitler, a great orator, offered them a new life. In doing so he taught the people that they were above others, a master race, hijacking Nietzsche's Ubermench,. (Being German, they did and believed what they were told.) This led to them supporting Hitler when he should have been seen even by Germans as a tyrant, especially after the deportation and mass killing of Jews. This would partly explain the conundrum which has puzzled me as to why the German people supported the war right up to the Russians reaching Hitler's bunker, when it was very clear that the war was lost. Even Hariss's carpet bombing had little practical effect: raids with 1,000 bombers, each bomber with ten bombs. (Part of the reason of course was the rifles of the Gestapo pointing at anyone who objected). This support for Hitler seems to have a parallel in the British who enthusiastically supported the Empire and all its suppressive activities right up to the 1950s, e.g. the earlier Indian Mutiny, and in the case of the Mau Mau rebellion in the 1950s it should have been clear that withdrawal was both the honourable and practical thing to do.

The history talks centred on the nature of Fascism, Communism, Conservatism and Liberalism. We were told that Communism has at least an intellectual basis: the people ruling themselves under a benign people-oriented government. But Fascism lacks any such basis, being tyrant-based: "I hoodwink the people about what is best for them and they will obey me or else."

I'm not a historian. I just pick up stuff here and there.

PS: Can it really have been 1,000 bombers per raid?

I don't think you can call Communism as people ruling themselves under a benign people-orientated government'. The Soviet Union was as bad as Hitler, maybe even worse under Stalin, Steve.

Neither do I think you can provide the British Empire as a parallel either. Sure some terrible things were done, by modern day standards, but that needs to be judged by the standards of the time and, as Empires go, it was a pretty benign one. Dyer's actions at Amritrar were described by Churchill (a great supporter of Empire) as 'monstrous and after the massacre (much exaggerated and embroidered by many) a delegation of Indian shopkeepers visited Dyer to thank him! Then look at the slave trade - yes it made huge sums for Britain but nevertheless it was rightly abolished by the British parliament, losing £billions in trade plus £billions more were spent to stamp it out and enforce the ban. Indeed it was only possible to stamp it out because of the extent, power and wealth of Empire. Looking at the British Empire as a whole and in a balance way it was by no means bad. You cannot say that about Hitler's National Socialists.

 

[spanner570]

Here's a little story my late dad told me when I questioned the awful things that happened during WW2.

"Son" he said. "Awful things were done by all sides, but sometimes the good side shines through."

This is what he told me.....

He was in the far east, serving with the RAF Regiment, who job it was, amongst other things, to consolidate captured airfields.

At one particular airstrip there were half a dozen captured Japanese soldiers who were working in a trench clearing out some oil drums from the bottom, my dad was guarding them. One of the prisoners refused to lift one of the drums miming it was too heavy.

My dad jumped down into the trench and flung one of the drums over the edge - which, by pure good luck, was empty! He then pointed his sten gun at the prisoner. The poor bloke, thinking my dad was super strong and he was going to be shot, fell on his knees and started to cry, and at the same time fumbled inside his tunic and pulled out a photo of his family.

This horrified my dad so much that he knelt down by his side and produced a picture of my mum...He too started to cry......

Two human beings sat in a trench in Burma, miles from home, sharing family photos.

So sometimes good things do happen in war.......especially when there are no thugs and evil people around.

I posted this story on here a long while back, so apologies for it's second outing.

 

[stona]

Steve you may find Goldenhagen's book something of a help in understanding what led a perfectly normal, cultured and civilised people like the Germans down the path they took in the 1930s and 40s.

A warning. Goldenhagen has come in for much criticism and I do not agree with his central tenet nor share his indictment of a whole people, I think it is simplistic. He does help understand the moral, cultural, even economic circumstances that allowed the holocaust to happen. Unlike Goldenhagen I think something like a holocaust could have been perpetrated by just about any European culture in different circumstances. I do not believe that what he calls "eliminationist antisemitism" had to be necessarily a product of German culture.

The book does dispel many popular myths and is certainly an interesting read, whether you agree with him or not.

"Hitler's Willing Executioners - Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" Daniel Goldenhagen ISBN 0679446958

My edition is 622 pages long so it will keep you going for a while!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

What a truly interesting thread. I know very little about this history and this has made me want to know a lot more about these event

 

[eddiesolo]

Your story Ron is similar to an experience that a friend of mines Grandfather had.

He was a rear turret gunner on Lancs and in one particular instance a German fighter came in from behind, higher and to one side, he fired a burst into the Lanc, then shot underneath, came around again and fired again. My mates Grandfather fired his guns also at the fighter.

Years later after the war, he was in a hotel in London and overheard a man talking in English, although with German accent, about an incident with a bomber, he remembered the letters and number on the aircraft and was telling this guy how the rear gunner had locked onto him and had given him a good 'peppering'. The man then moved his hairline to show a diminishing scar that ran along his scalp. At this my mates Grandfather, who was not very keen on 'those bloody jerries' got up and walked over. The German pilot looked at him and smiled and asked if he was all right. My mates Grandfather smiled back and offered him his hand, they may have been on differing sides but a common bond had formed between them. They corresponded for many years after becoming good friends.

Friendships borne through war and friendships lost through war...it's a strange world.

Si

 

[stona]

quote="Stevekir, post: 180501, member: 22067"]

PS: Can it really have been 1,000 bombers per raid?

It could be though it was very much an exception.

Historical context.

Air Marshall Richard Pierce was removed as C-in-C bomber Command on 8th January 1942. Air Vice Marshall Baldwin (previously commander of 3 Group) took over as an interim C-in-C. The famous (or infamous) "area bombing" directive was sent to Bomber Command on 14th February 1942.

"It has been decided that the primary objective of your operations should now be focussed on the morale of the enemy civil population and in particular of the industrial workers."

The next day Portal wrote to Air Vice Marshall Bottomley, who had drafted the directive to Bomber Command.

"Ref the new bombing directive. I suppose it is clear that the aiming points are to be the built up areas, not, for instance, the dockyards or aircraft factories where these are mentioned in Appendix A.

This must be made quite clear if it is not already understood."

Now all they needed was a new C-in C to carry out the job and on 22nd February Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Harris took up the reigns.

The first thousand bomber raid was that on Cologne on 30/31 May 1942. 1,047 aircraft were dispatched and between 868 and 898 aircraft bombed Cologne, depending whether you believe Bomber Command's "Night Bombing Sheets" or the Official History.

Bomber Command struggled to field the so called "thousand force". The next raid on Essen actually comprised 956 aircraft. Most raids comprised far fewer bombers. Even the notorious Dresden raid was carried out by 796 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitos.

Zoom in on this image and scroll....and scroll....and scroll.



Cheers

Steve

Image edited for higher res version. Which doesn't seem to have worked, oh well, you can get the idea.

 

[Guest]

I don't think you can call Communism as people ruling themselves under a benign people-orientated government'. The Soviet Union was as bad as Hitler, maybe even worse under Stalin, Steve.Neither do I think you can provide the British Empire as a parallel either. Sure some terrible things were done, by modern day standards, but that needs to be judged by the standards of the time and, as Empires go, it was a pretty benign one. Dyer's actions at Amritrar were described by Churchill (a great supporter of Empire) as 'monstrous and after the massacre (much exaggerated and embroidered by many) a delegation of Indian shopkeepers visited Dyer to thank him! Then look at the slave trade - yes it made huge sums for Britain but nevertheless it was rightly abolished by the British parliament, losing £billions in trade plus £billions more were spent to stamp it out and enforce the ban. Indeed it was only possible to stamp it out because of the extent, power and wealth of Empire. Looking at the British Empire as a whole and in a balance way it was by no means bad. You cannot say that about Hitler's National Socialists.

On the Soviet Union itself, I agree, but I meant that Communism (unlike Fascism) had in principle a benign objective, and in theory could have produced a happy and prosperous country. Fascism, however, is most unlikely to do that.

I also agree that the Empire had good features (although not from the point of view, at the time, of many Indians, aborigines, Zulus etc.) Perhaps India is a better place today, for Indians, as a result of British-imposed democracy. I don't know enough about history to be able to reach conclusions on our ex-colonies in Africa, Malaya etc.

I always feel queazy about "...needs to be judged by the standards of the time" arguments. Most of Europe has had the benefit of, and been instructed by the tenets of the Christian Church, yet many acts grossly contrary to them were never-the-less carried out, some even by the Church! (I'm not religious, be the way.) Perhaps some of the Wars of the Roses, The Spanish in South America, extermination of the Tasmanian aborigines in the early 1800s, the Massacre of the Sioux at Wounded Knee by the US military (where the number killed was, I have read, greater than that of the Holocaust). These are surely stains on what it means to be human. (The persecution and killing of the Jews in Germany does not count because it was contrary to the standards of the time.)

All this is bordering on Philosophy, an interesting subject.

 

[Guest]

Cheers

Steve

Interesting, but I can't view the image (apart from seeing it embedded in your message).

 

[stona]

Right click and "save picture as" whatever you ike on your desk top. You should then be able to open it with a double click in your default image programme and zoom.

The only problem is that I have uploaded a low res version which will just look like a load of blurry outlines when zoomed. I'll try to find the original and edit my post!

Cheers

Steve