discussion SE5a CONSTRUCTION BEGINNING TO . . .

[Guest]

I haven't been on these forums in a little while and I must say it was very nerve racking reading that post about your SE5a!

That's one of the concerns thats always put me off of R/C Aircraft!

And Richard - What were you doing to that poor Joffre tug, atleast the dingy passed it's first sea trials!

 

[Greyhead]

Well I’ve had the 15x4 prop for a couple of weeks now and have tested it out on the ground; the 1-inch reduction in diameter has resulted in a 16% increase in static revs to 7900, which should help considerably in a “no wind” situation.

I waited before posting this in the hope of being in a position to also give a report on the practical difference to the flying but with the weather being as it is there’s been no chance of that!

I also doubt if I’ll be doing anymore flying before the end of the season because we have just sold our house and are in the process of packing everything into boxes ready for the move. I think Barry will agree that packing the better half’s china is one thing but packing scale models and all the associated modelling tools requires far more care and attention!

 

[Guest]

Grahame Hi,

Have started my Peter Rake S.E.5a, chickened out and went for the laser cut parts as it's been a while since i've balsa bashed.

The one I am going to model mine on is a Wolseley Viper power plant C1149 "Schweinhund" No 56 Sqn flown by Captain Duncan Grinnell-Milne . The fuselage is painted matt scarlet so I think she will be a bit different from the norm!

A couple of questions if you don't mind?

1; how many cooling slots under the engine as I have a line drawing showing 8 or 10, were they different for the Wolseley and Hispano and if so what had what?

2;the pictures I have of the foot holes do not appear to be very deep, now is this because they aren't or do they have a flap covering them from the inside?

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[Greyhead]

Graeme

To get the easy one out of the way first, the foot holes do have a sprung flap hinged on the inside, which folds down when kicked by the pilot’s foot, as such it shows a lot of wear and tear.

As for the under pan, things aren’t quite as straightforward! I have drawings that show at one extreme 4 full width louvers pressed inwards, at the other extreme, 16 short louvers, 2 rows of 8, pressed outwards. In between these extremes there are 2 versions with 8 vents, 2 rows of 4; one with “race track” shaped holes, the other has rectangular vents apparently made by cutting the 2 short sides and the rear long side and then pressing the resulting flap inwards. I haven't got any with 10 vents.

I have to admit that I haven’t done extensive research about this but the paperwork I have doesn’t give any correlation between the type of venting and any variation in model such as engine used.

As with most of these early aircraft I think that development was rather ad hoc so barring any firm evidence the choice is yours with this and a lot of other things you’ll come across during your build! I chose the “race track” holes as I thought they would be the best at keeping the engine bay cool by providing plenty of air to the exhaust pipe; and they were easy to model.

Sorry I can’t give you any more precise information but I’m afraid definitive information is rather hard to come by for most WW1 aircraft, but at least it’s very unlikely that anyone else has the information so they can’t really say you’ve got it wrong.

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[Guest]

Many thanks for the reply Grahame,

See what you mean about the vents! I think I'll go for the eight, some pics I've not seen so again thanks

No doubt there will be more questions as I go.

Shall post some build pictures when l can, and thanks for the inspiration you have a truly amazing bird there.

 

[Greyhead]

I have decided that as far as I’m concerned any serious flying is over for this season, even if the weather improves the Redmarshall field is so waterlogged that it won’t be any fun; in fact I think this photo taken from the TMFC Website just about sums up this summer!


So it’s time to think about modifications to the SE5a, there always seem to be a few of things that I’m not too happy about with a new model; the Foster mount for the Lewis gun isn’t steady enough on the top wing centre section, but first I’m going to make new radiator slats.


I made the originals from aluminium glued to thin piano wire rods, with the engine vibration they have become loose and pivot at random so some slats are open while some are closed, which doesn’t look good at all. This time I’m soldering tinplate slats to thin brass rod.


When faced with the task of making numerous identical parts, in this case I need 60 slats, it’s a lot easier if you make some form of jig. It doesn’t have to be an elaborate affair; this is just a 2mm ply box with 2 slots and a removable plug.


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The tinplate slat and brass rod are “tinned” then assembled in the jig for soldering.


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The wire is trimmed to leave 2mm either end before removing the block and the finished slat.


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6 down only another 54 to go!

 

[Guest]

Grahame Hi,

Not only are you a most excellent model maker but also a gentleman and a scholar many thanks for the CD.

Cheers Graeme.

 

[Greyhead]

Graeme

No problem, just hope you find it useful.

Grahame

 

[Greyhead]

I’d not done any modelling recently with all my modelling paraphernalia being packed away in cardboard boxes ready for moving home, but the credit crunch has reared its ugly head and the buyer has “pulled out” so I’m gradually getting the modelling room back to normal; very frustrating, all that time wasted for nothing!


It didn’t take too long to finish off the other 54 radiator slats and then it was onto making the frames.


The first thing was to bend some tinplate into a thin channel section. When bending tinplate it’s best to hold it in a vice between 2 pieces of metal, then using something like a metal rule produce the bend by “folding” the tinplate. If you try to bend it using your fingers you’ll get a “wavy” bend and if you use a hammer the metal will stretch and the finished bend will end up with a pronounced bow.


I printed out a guide to help me get the 30 holes in the correct places.


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The holes were then punched through the channel section using a pin and pin hammer. The holes were punched rather than drilled because it produces a slight “collar”, which gives much more area for the solder joint to the radiator slat pin.


The slats were soldered to one side first using a strip of 0.4mm ply as a spacer to ensure all the slats have the same clearance with the side frame. At this stage things look very “rough”.....


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.....but once the second side is soldered in place the excess solder and brass pins can be “Dremmelled” away and all that’s left is a neat row of pin ends.


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Top and bottom frame sections soldered in place complete the job ready for the mounting brackets.


This is much stronger than the original aluminium ones I made; they do of course weigh a bit more but being right at the front of the model it shouldn’t make any noticeable difference.

 

[Greyhead]

The shinny “tin plate” finish of the new radiator slats just didn’t look right so I toned them down a bit with a coat of silver Solarlac before soldering them to the lugs.

They don’t look quite as good as the original ones I made from aluminium but at least all the slats should stay in the same orientation so the overall effect will be better.

 

[Greyhead]

I have been talking to a fellow modeller who has an SE5a about the Foster mount for the Lewis gun, he has the ¼ scale DB Sport and Scale version. As it is in a very vulnerable position on top of the centre section, the model “nosing over” when landing, unfortunately quite a common occurrence, can easily damage it.

For this reason we have decided that I should not strengthen the mounting but leave it well alone; although the Lewis gun does wobble about a bit it is only at certain engine revs and isn’t too noticeable even then. As it is, if it does take a knock it should break away without causing any structural damage to the centre section and be a simple job to glue it back in position.

I’m pretty confident that it won’t fly off in mid air so long as I check it before flight after any “nose over”!

 

[Guest]

I like your work and will watch with great interest. The Thunderbolt is the first fixed wing that i have ever attempted to build, it even the first model realy apart from my Raptor 50 Heli. I love the scale aspect of building. The project i have taken on is a bit advanced for a beginer but what the heck, if i can pull this off i can master a lot of things. Once built i then intend to move on to a 1/6th or 1/4 scale. From the Gallery you'll probably agree that i'm not doing too bad for a first attempt.Keep up the good work.Andy PS, if you need a source for Pilots i have a good contact 1/6th Scale.

 

[Guest]

I have been talking to a fellow modeller who has an SE5a about the Foster mount for the Lewis gun, he has the ¼ scale DB Sport and Scale version. As it is in a very vulnerable position on top of the centre section, the model “nosing over” when landing, unfortunately quite a common occurrence, can easily damage it.For this reason we have decided that I should not strengthen the mounting but leave it well alone; although the Lewis gun does wobble about a bit it is only at certain engine revs and isn’t too noticeable even then. As it is, if it does take a knock it should break away without causing any structural damage to the centre section and be a simple job to glue it back in position.

I’m pretty confident that it won’t fly off in mid air so long as I check it before flight after any “nose over”!

Hi Grahame,

I've just found this thread of yours and i must say having just looked through it it is a work of heart, i thought Dave Platt was good... Can you tell me please, how the hell do you get hold of Litho plate, i have heard many talk about it and have now seen it in action, also what board do you use to peg to whilst building. I have just found some 'T' pins after struggling with normal ones for a few weeks. Fantastic build, puts my first attempt into prospective.

Andy

 

[Guest]

SE5a

I am in the process of building a Flair SE5a but I am attempting to give it a more scale appearance. I am noit suficiently skilled enough to emulate Greybeard's heroic build from scratch, but have read his build thread with interest and admiration. However I am unable to follow his stiching 'instructions' for the canvase side panels. He describes making a 'separate seam' but it is not clear what he is stitching it to. The meet is over a stringer and it would be extreemely difficult to sew over it .It would make sense to attach the seam to the stringer, but how? the adhesive is on the inside of the 'seam' if you proceed as grey beard indicates. Perhaps he could explain how he simulated the stitching. Petrus

IntroductionAny “fact” about the original SE5a that appears anywhere in this thead should be read as if it had the caveat “ to the best of my knowledge from the research I have done.” added!



END OF EDIT

This thread is going to be a long-term project; if you have read my Parnall Elf construction thread you will know that I’m not a super fast builder, I took nearly 3 years to redesign and build that model, but in that case the model was completed before I started the thread!

With the decision made that my next scale model is to be an SE5a the search begins for a suitable plan; if someone has done all the hard work for you what’s the point in doing it all again and designing from scratch? I will use one of my trusty Laser 70s but was unable to find a suitable plan for this size engine so first some calculations from a simple 3-view drawing downloaded from the Internet.

The first thing to determine is the size; this may not be quite as simple as it seems, a flick through the plans hand book shows models of a similar design i.e. biplane with rigging wires, varying from 80” span for a 48 – 52 four stroke to 56” span for 80 – 90 two stroke (therefore at least a 90 four stroke). The method I use is to work out a minimum size that will allow the engine to be fully enclosed then go bigger to make it the correct size for commercially available accessories, usually wheels. My argument for this method is that you can never have too much power if you need it, but you can always use less throttle and a larger diameter prop to fly in a scale manner. In this instance it equates to 58” span for 5” Williams Bros. vintage wheels.

The next consideration is how scale? As I was going to have to redraw the plan anyway I chose the most accurate I could find, the plan was ordered and then reduced by Prontaprint. I intend to trace the outline then design my own internal construction as I hope to be modifying the plan to allow for some extra scale detail. Before any design work can start I need to confirm the viability of such modifications by making test parts / jigs etc.

 

[Greyhead]

Peter

It’s always a bit of a juggling act trying to explain how things are done in sufficient detail without making the post too boring, also having done the job myself I understand what I’ve written!

The fuselage is covered with Solartex as usual, first bottom, then sides and finally the top. The seams are made from 12mm wide Solartex strips, I folded 4mm back onto itself, adhesive to adhesive, and ironed it together; this resulted in a strip 8mm wide, with 4mm of the adhesive still available, which I used to attach the strip to the fuselage in the appropriate place. I then attached a second strip immediately below the first with the loose “flaps” next to each other. When I did the stitching it only went through the two loose “flaps”, this held them together and tight to the fuselage side.

I hope the above, read in conjunction with the photos from the earlier posts, make things a bit clearer. If you’re still not sure pm me with your email address and I’ll send you some photos and sketches. It really is an easy job, which makes a big difference to the scale appearance of the model.

If there’s anything else you think I may be able to help with just ask.

Grahame

 

[Guest]

stitching

PeterIt’s always a bit of a juggling act trying to explain how things are done in sufficient detail without making the post too boring, also having done the job myself I understand what I’ve written!

The fuselage is covered with Solartex as usual, first bottom, then sides and finally the top. The seams are made from 12mm wide Solartex strips, I folded 4mm back onto itself, adhesive to adhesive, and ironed it together; this resulted in a strip 8mm wide, with 4mm of the adhesive still available, which I used to attach the strip to the fuselage in the appropriate place. I then attached a second strip immediately below the first with the loose “flaps” next to each other. When I did the stitching it only went through the two loose “flaps”, this held them together and tight to the fuselage side.

I hope the above, read in conjunction with the photos from the earlier posts, make things a bit clearer. If you’re still not sure pm me with your email address and I’ll send you some photos and sketches. It really is an easy job, which makes a big difference to the scale appearance of the model.

If there’s anything else you think I may be able to help with just ask.

Grahame

Grahame,

Many thanks, that sounds more do-able now though I am experimenting with an off-model pannel as I am finding neat stitching difficult enough as it is.My plane is slightly smaller. My plan is to fold back 6mm to form the seam but then to add a layer of solartex to attach to finished pannel to the frame; in other words I will be stitching through three layers of solartex. Thanks for the info Petrus

 

[Greyhead]

Peter

The advantage of only stitching through the loose” flaps” is that you don’t have to get inside the model, which makes things a lot easier. I did try “proper” stitching but it was very difficult to keep all the stitches evenly spaced.

Grahame

 

[Greyhead]

Andy

You can get litho plate from printers’ suppliers, some model shops and quite often on ebay but I prefer to get it for free! Getting hold of litho plate is getting harder these days as printers turn away from the old offset printing methods so it’s just a case of visiting as many printers as you can find locally, when they’ve used it they return it for recycling but it’s so light I’m sure they don’t get a fortune and it’s no good to them but used is as good as new for what we want; I usually put a donation in the charity box. Luckily there’s a little “back street” printer local to me and having spoken to him he hasn’t got any plans at present to upgrade I’m glad to say.

I made my building board from an 1ft x 8ft sheet of melamine cut in half and glued and screwed together, a laminate is a lot better than one thick sheet, much less likely to warp. The top surface is covered with “K Class” pin board, which is very long lasting but quite expensive, a friend of mine uses plasterboard as a top cover, it has to be replaced regularly but it’s dirt-cheap.

 

[Guest]

AndyYou can get litho plate from printers’ suppliers, some model shops and quite often on ebay but I prefer to get it for free! Getting hold of litho plate is getting harder these days as printers turn away from the old offset printing methods so it’s just a case of visiting as many printers as you can find locally, when they’ve used it they return it for recycling but it’s so light I’m sure they don’t get a fortune and it’s no good to them but used is as good as new for what we want; I usually put a donation in the charity box. Luckily there’s a little “back street” printer local to me and having spoken to him he hasn’t got any plans at present to upgrade I’m glad to say.

I made my building board from an 1ft x 8ft sheet of melamine cut in half and glued and screwed together, a laminate is a lot better than one thick sheet, much less likely to warp. The top surface is covered with “K Class” pin board, which is very long lasting but quite expensive, a friend of mine uses plasterboard as a top cover, it has to be replaced regularly but it’s dirt-cheap.

Thanks for the info mate, i have tried emailing a few printers locally that i found on YELL.com only one has come back so far but that was negative. I'm sure if i look hard enough i could find another substitue for it.

Andy

 

[Greyhead]

Andy

I think that the “personal touch” works a lot better than email, I always take an example of something I’ve made, it usually arouses a bit of interest. I realise that as yet you’ve not used litho plate but perhaps a photo of what you’re trying to achieve could help.

If you only need quite small pieces you can use aluminium beer cans, of course the problem with this is that you have to drink the beer first, but we have to make some sacrifices for our hobby!!