discussion Suggestions for Small Steam Launch - Live Steam

[Guest]

I'm looking for Xmas presents to buy a retired engineer (my Dad), who is a fan of all things steam, used to build model boats, a steam tug and a paddle tug. Spent most of his holidays at places that "just happened" to have preservation railways nearby.

I was thinking of a small steam plant and a if possible kit for a steam launch. No access to a mill or a lathe so steam plant must be as self contained as possible. No castings which will need machining. Would be nice to run but more than likely will be a static display model which has the option of being run.

I'm hoping the small polished brass and copper parts will lure him away from countless hours of daytime TV

Any Suggestions?

 

[Guest]

Wow Alan, big subject and I'm not sure where to start with it.

A major contributing factor is your budget as non of these things are cheap so I would expect you are going to have to pay in the region of 1-200 pounds for something suitable. I would also suggest that you go for something that operates as it will appeal to your fathers sense of engineering far more than a static model.

Firstly the more well known manufacturers:

Stuart are the most established and do a very wide range of models as bare castings, machined kits or complete tested units:

http://www.stuartmodels.co.uk/

The trouble is here they are expensive but the models are traditional and look like a real engine.

Another relative newcomer is Cotswold Heritage at:

http://www.modelsteamenginesuk.com/aboutus.asp

Once again beautiful models but very expensive. They do a very nice range of models complete on a base with boilers which make up into a complete plant.

John Hemmens is also a favourite at:

http://www.steamengines.co.uk/

John is a one man band so I would be very surprised if he could supply anything for Christmas but he is very flexible and freindly, happy to have a chat but a bit frustrating with delivery times. Have a look at my Ben Ain build thread and gallery to see what his engines look like.

Here is also a usefull list of model boat suppliers which include many live steam manufacturers for you to spend an hour or so wading through:

http://www.modelismonaval.com/directory/steam.htm

What you will need to distinguish here is whether they make models of real engine configurations, such as Stuart, or whether they make models designed purely for a purpose such as propelling a boat. Cheddar were such a manufacturer so thier models would not be considered as attractive as a stand alone model but are easier to look after and maintain.

The final alternative of course is Ebay where you will find everything from museum condition models to crap. I have bought both in the past, sometimes in the knowledge of what I was buying and sometimes not quite so much.

It is a mine field but there are some very worthwhile models to be had there. I have purchased a lot of models from Ebay, some of which I was very pleased with, but you have to do your homework.

Such items as this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/french-f-s-radiguet-antique-steam-engine_W0QQitemZ320053179131QQihZ011QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

are lovely stand alone, self contained, models that would keep an engineer amused for hours.

This is a very nice boat complete plant ready to go back into a hull:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Radio-Controlled-Live-Steam-Boat-Engine-and-Boiler_W0QQitemZ300054239744QQihZ020QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

a nice Stuart engine without a boiler (and a bit expensive):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stuart-Turner-No-8-live-steam-mill-engine-dampfmaschine_W0QQitemZ150062609423QQihZ005QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is a nice little conversation peice but, once again, no boiler:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-Vintage-Steam-Engine-With-Edward-VII-Florin-Inset_W0QQitemZ130051168086QQihZ003QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is a nice little antique complete plant which has the added advantage of a bit of age to give it some interest. I would check with the seller that it has been recently tested and ask if it runs smoothly. If not you are taking a chance.

Next here is a nice completed Stuart at a reasonable price (currently!) but again no boiler:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/stuart-steam-engine_W0QQitemZ230056157300QQihZ013QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Now if you want to get him out of the house completely on a Sunday morning how about a complete boat:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Live-steam-river-launch_W0QQitemZ200052075599QQihZ010QQcategoryZ14737QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That is a very nice model and would be a superb present for an ex-engineer. It is a lot of money though if you are not certain that he would take to it. I think it is great!

That is just a few things currently on offer.

I would personally stay away from Mamod and Wilesco as they really fall more into the 'toy' category. They are great for introducing kids to the hobby but I think a retired engineer would soon get bored with one and they don't have any aesthetic value.

What I would suggest is that you have a look through those links and generate a bit more of a direction you think is appropriate and then set a budget.

If you let me know what your thoughts are then I will see if we can narrow the choice down a bit.

If he doesn't have any machine tools have you thought about a modelling lathe or milling machine? You could set him up to be able to do a bit of his own machining then which would be something he could enjoy for a long time to come. It depends a bit on available space but Unimat lathes are very small desk top units and you can go up from there.

 

[Guest]

Thanks a lot for those recomendations!

I realise it's going to be a hefty chunk for the steam plant. I'm really looking to get an idea of what steam plants are available and what kinds of steam launch kits would suit. I'd want the steam plant to run, but the model would be "static" for the bulk of it's life, something based around a real steam plant rather than a purpose designed model steam engine.

I think I'll probably look for just getting the steam launch kit and save the steam plant for another occasion, obviously the kit will be a nice project to work on. It'd be nice to have some suitable steam plants in mind.

I used to own a mamod and yep those things are pretty much toys with little useable power. Still good fun nonetheless!

I was initially looking at the roundhouse range of live steam locos, although having looked at those you really get what you pay for with the cylinder and valve gear on the cheaper models.

Those stuart turner steam plants look fantastic, what John Hemmens plant does your Ben Ain use?

I'm really after a kit for a small model preferably less than 36" long, Ideally approx 20 - 24" open topped something similar to this in style:

The shots of your model were partly responsible for the interest in live steam too, plus a visit to the lake windermere steamboat museum earlier this year!

 

[Guest]

Alan, I think the idea of a model boat is an excellent idea and gives your father the option of what ever steam plant he wants to put in it at a later date.

I would tend towards an open launch model for a first kit as they are relatively easy to put together and, being open, look very attractive both on the side board and on the water. They are also easy to operate and maintain so make an ideal introduction to steam boats.

There are plentry to choose from but the first one that springs to mind would be one of the Krick kits, particularly the Borkum kit. Check out here:

http://www.sell-it-easy.de/shop_e/query.php?cp_sid=4900272a2956&cp_pid=123004107&cp_cat=252&cp_tpl=5504_252

They also do a couple of other launches but the Borkum is a nice simple design that I have always liked.

Check out the others here:

http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/krick.htm

and have a look at this excellent page from Astbury Models:

http://www.astbury.org/models/puffin/mdpuffin.htm

Bear in mind here though that these prices are a bit out of date and Cheddar no longer produce engines.

Another option would be a fibre glass hull and a set of plans as can be bought from Kingston Mouldings:

http://www.kingstonmouldings.com/home.htm

I have one of thier River Queen hulls that I hope one day to put a twin vertical steam engine into with a controllable pitch propeller for propulsion.

If it was me in your situation I would definately go for a Krick Borkum.

The plant options for your father are then quite wide ranging and any one of a number of small oscillators could be fitted to run it.

My Hemmens set up is a 'V' Twin Richmond Engine with a Ribbersdale horizontal boiler. I have also used Johns gas tanks and seperator tanks in the installation.

 

[Guest]

Steam plant supplier

Hello all, Alan what a wonderful idea to give your father such a lovely gift. Yes I know that I am very biased in this view! May I recommend a boiler and engine manufacturer to you ACS Engineering on the banks of the Crinan Canal in Scotland are a small family business doing general marine repairs etc. but the proprietor Sandy Campbell also specialises in miniature steam plants for us model makers. Their web page is http://www.acs-engineering.co.uk/ I am considering purchasing one of these if this years bonus is anyway half decent and also the 1912 Yacht tender from Kingston Mouldings or possibly their Open Windermere Launch. As previously advised Kingston's web site is http://www.kingstonmouldings.com/products.html where you will see the various hulls offered. You know you want to make you old man happy and maybe even get him to build an heirloom piece. :grinball2:

kind regards

Jim

 

[Guest]

Thanks for those recommendations. Those steam plants look wonderful although a little higher in price than what I was looking to pay. I'm really after quite a small model, preferably under 36" in length.

The African Queen launch on Kingston Mouldings would make an attractive model and they recommend a small steam plant from "Stour Valley Steam"

Do you know if Stour Valley have a website?

 

[Guest]

If I remember rightly SVS have never had a web site so you may have to try to find a normal address for them. I'm not sure if I did hear they had ceased production but don't quote me on that.

I know Frank Hinchcliffe at Mountfleet Models always recommended thier engines.

Unfortunately I'm afraid steam plants are very expensive and you will be stuck with either a large bill or go for something more of a 'toy' nature which will probably be non-reversible and maybe even not self starting.

Be carefull with your choice of plant and don't be afraid to ask about a specific item before you commit to anything.

There is actually a very nice complete boat plant on Ebay at the moment which may be worth watching:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Radio-Controlled-Live-Steam-Boat-Engine-and-Boiler_W0QQitemZ300054239744QQihZ020QQcategoryZ14737QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is an example of one to be carefull with, it is not self starting or reversing so a potential challenge in the middle of the pond!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Live-steam-marine-engine-boiler-unused-dampfmaschine_W0QQitemZ150064946441QQihZ005QQcategoryZ14737QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and finally in it's simplest form, once again not self starting or reversing.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MIDWEST-MODEL-VI-STEAM-ENGINE-RC-BOAT-USE_W0QQitemZ160057713038QQihZ006QQcategoryZ14737QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Guest]

I emailed ACS-Engineering who have been really helpful too.

I have some hom,ework to do following up all those links!

This is the reply to my enquiry which has a lot of useful information:

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your enquiry regarding available kits (approx 24" length) and suitable steam plants.

Kits in this size are, unfortunately, few and far between, and those that are available usually have hulls moulded from ABS, or built up from wood, rather than fibre-glass.

Available kits include: -

'Midwest Kits'........'Elliott Bay' steam launch @ 25 1/2", or 'Fantail' steam launch @ 19.0".

'Krick Kits'.......'Anna' open steam launch @ 610mm (24").

'Billings Kits'....'St Canute' steam tug @ 560mm(22.0")...this has a built up hull though.

Slightly larger models are: -

'Krick Kits'...... 'Alexandra' steam launch @ 940mm (37") or 'Victoria' Steam Launch @ 1016mm (40")

All of the above would be suitably powered by an ACS 'Asp' twin oscillating engine coupled with one of the NEW (available January end 2007) 2 1/2" dia vertical boilers, with the exception of the 'St Canute' steam tug....this would require a horizontal 2 1/2" boiler (also available end January 2007), also the last 2 listed would be better equipped with the NEW (available end January 2007) and slightly larger 3" dia vertical boiler.

If you feel that you could manage with a Glass-fibre hull and plan...then 'Kingston-mouldings' do a few small hulls specifically for these small steam models...which come under the Mini-Vap size rules.

http://kingstonmouldings.co.uk

Prices.

The overall price for steam plants will, of course, vary with the content/requirements, so I can not be overly specific at this time.

A a rough guide: -

Asp Engine = £185.13

2 1/2" boilers (vertical or horizontal) £ £210.00.

3" boiler (vertical or horizontal) £ 250.00

All boilers come with water gauge, safety valve, filler cap. pressure gauge, steam outlet connection ceramic burner, gas pipe and gas jet and brass boiler bands.

If a re-fillable gas tank is also requested then this has the gas control valve built in, otherwise a separate gas control valve is supplied (for disposable canisters).

The 'Asp' Twin engine is supplied with combined steam/forward/stop/reverse regulator and steam and exhaust connections.

A separate steam stop valve and lubricator would also be required.

Complete outfits can be assembled, including 'Asp' engine, boiler (of choice), burner, gas valve or gas tank, base mounting plate and condenser/oil trap and includes all steam and gas pipe-work, safety valve vent pipe, lubricator and steam stop valve.....Ready to run.

With a 2/12" boiler these start at £515.00

and with a 3" boiler these start at £554.75.

All prices are exclusive of postage and packing.... I do not charge VAT.

All of the (NEW) above will be available/orderable via the ACS web site in January 2007.

I hope this is of help in making your choices.

 

[Guest]

MIDWEST ELLIOTT BAY STM.LAUNCH 2CH 64cm (988)

[JP-5502105]£124.99

• Hull length - 25 1/4ins
  
• Beam - 6 7/8ins
  
• Requires - 2ch. R/C
  
• Running hardware included

I've had a look at this kit, from Midwest Models. It's based on a US Steam Launch and makes for a charming model. It's only 25 1/4" long and suitable for some of the small range of steam plants and 2 1/2" boilers from ACS Engineering.

 

[Guest]

I just saw this item on Ebay - ended up selling for £1,700.

Live Steam Cheddar Models River launch Engine

eBay Auction No.: 230057501304

 

[Guest]

That seems to be about the going rate for these things although this one may be a touch on the high side. I have seen others slightly larger going for about the £1500.00 mark.

I personally think the prices are being inflated by these so called antique dealers. What this model has to merit it as an antique I don't know.

The standard plant runs at about £500.00 with say another hundred for tanks, valves fixtures etc. The model should be around £200.00-£300.00 and a two channel radio 50 quid.

An open launch is not the most challenging of model boats to put together and models such as this one are supplied with fibre glass hulls so it's not even a wooden hull.

I would say that a thousand is plenty for something such as this but, as long as there are idiots prepared to pay these prices and there are so called antique dealer prepared to sell them, we are going to see prices such as this.

 

[Guest]

Oh! flip....

I just wrote a complicated reply and when I back paged for the web address I lost it..

So heres the web address French steam engines northern France..

http://fabrice.bretagne.club.fr/Index.htm

Very nice too.. Ken