SE5a CONSTRUCTION BEGINNING TO . . .

[Guest]

SE-5A aircraft

Hello at scale Model. I am new to the modelling business but I wnated to make a comment about how well the SE-5A flys. Some years ago I was asked to test fly an SE-5A replica which had an All Up Weight of close to 750lbs. The aircraft was powered by a Lycoming 2351C. 115 h.p.The aeroplane was 75% Scale and fitting were very real. Having done a lot of time in a DH82A Tiger Moth I was interested to see how well the SE5A flew and handled especially with the narrow motor bike wheel landing gear. The test flying was very enjoyable. What a great aeroplane. Far better to fly in many areas of flight then the Tiger Moth. The SE5A rate of climb was excellent but the pitch trim stability just great. Here is an aeroplane you could tour in as long as the gas range and still feel great. The SE5 never had the old stick and rudder problem the tiger had. The rudder was trimmed hands off. The aircraft was quite and take-off and landing are very easy. You may be interested in the fact that the Centre of Gravity is caculated from the leading edg of the upper wing not the lower wing. On the plans for this aeroplane it showed the CG caculated from the lower wing. The CAA department at the time were stickers for the fact that the CG should be where the drawings say!!! So with large pieces of lead I flew the aeroplane with a huge aft CG. So far aft was it one needed a lot of forward stick to fly it. However the aeroplane coped very well. What I am saying is it had a HUGE CG range something like 11 inches of travel. Of course we went to CAA and said this is stupid. They weren't keen on this and so I located an aero design engineer who,s father was a far dinkum SE-5A fighter pilot. Pat had all the origional drawings and was able to prove to the CAA that the replica drawings were wrong and we shiffed the CG back to the first position. But here was an aeroplane that could handle 30kt winds, very good in a cross wind and in general a great aeroplane to fly. One of the best bi-planes I have flown. I had the great fun one day flying this aircraft close to a nudist coloney and above the place was a chap in a Cameron hot air baloon (bright red). He was leaning out of the basket looking down at the ground I think hoping to see some nudies. I came in from the other side of the ballon with the Se-5A and with my lewis gun up top of the wing and copper exagust pipe and camouflage the SE-5A looked great. I came around the side of the ballon straight passed this chap. He got such a fright he almost fell out of the ballon with fright. The last I saw of him, he was shaking his fist at me!!!

One other great moment I had in the SE5-A I was flying along a lonely beach about 40 ft above the sand and came across some fishing kits used for launching fishing lines. They are a real hazzard to an aeroplane. I climb up to 500ft and then saw a single figure further up along the beach and so I decided to land the SE-5A on the beach. That was all fine and I taxied to a halt. I left the engine running and got out. This chap was a very old native man and the beach was close to a military bombing range. I said hello and he said to me "The wars still on"!!!!. I really was stuck for words and I said Ya its still on!!!!. I talked a bit and then got back in the SE-5A and flew away!!!

[Guest]

Hi Grahame,

Just a note to say I have scanned the Drawings of the Vac Forming Unit and have got the pic down to a respectable 125Kb in size, So I think John will be ok with that one. The Pic still comes out nice and clear and can be enlarged quite easily with no loss of clarity.

I will post it up on a separate thread later as it is a thread in it's own right, you will be amazed to see how simple it really is.

Regards.....Mark.

[Greyhead]

Thanks Mark, but I was more concerned about copyright issues.

And thanks also to Mignet for that interesting tale, it's good to know that I needn't be too accurate with my CG calculations!

[wonwinglo]

Mignet,some great flying adventures there,the S.E.5A was indeed a superior machine to the Tiger Moth,probably due to the larger tail surfaces,but one thing that we must not forget is that the Tiger was designed like that as a trainer,for pilots transitting to much trickier machines to go to war in,heavily loaded machines spin and spin recovery was high on the training syllabus,so to be fair we need to take that into consideration in any comparison.

The centre of gravity on a staggered biplane needs always to be taken from the mean value,ie the upper wing and lower wings combined,your rearward c of g position whilst forgiving on the S.E.5A could have had dangerous circumstances on any other machine,the certifcation authorities are not always correct in their assumptions and sticklers to drawings,those calculations really need revising.

Was it the Replica Plans S.E.5A that you were flying ?

It sounds like you are a real seat of the pants flyer who enjoys his flying,more power to you.

Hello at scale Model. I am new to the modelling business but I wnated to make a comment about how well the SE-5A flys. Some years ago I was asked to test fly an SE-5A replica which had an All Up Weight of close to 750lbs. The aircraft was powered by a Lycoming 2351C. 115 h.p.The aeroplane was 75% Scale and fitting were very real. Having done a lot of time in a DH82A Tiger Moth I was interested to see how well the SE5A flew and handled especially with the narrow motor bike wheel landing gear. The test flying was very enjoyable. What a great aeroplane. Far better to fly in many areas of flight then the Tiger Moth. The SE5A rate of climb was excellent but the pitch trim stability just great. Here is an aeroplane you could tour in as long as the gas range and still feel great. The SE5 never had the old stick and rudder problem the tiger had. The rudder was trimmed hands off. The aircraft was quite and take-off and landing are very easy. You may be interested in the fact that the Centre of Gravity is caculated from the leading edg of the upper wing not the lower wing. On the plans for this aeroplane it showed the CG caculated from the lower wing. The CAA department at the time were stickers for the fact that the CG should be where the drawings say!!! So with large pieces of lead I flew the aeroplane with a huge aft CG. So far aft was it one needed a lot of forward stick to fly it. However the aeroplane coped very well. What I am saying is it had a HUGE CG range something like 11 inches of travel. Of course we went to CAA and said this is stupid. They weren't keen on this and so I located an aero design engineer who,s father was a far dinkum SE-5A fighter pilot. Pat had all the origional drawings and was able to prove to the CAA that the replica drawings were wrong and we shiffed the CG back to the first position. But here was an aeroplane that could handle 30kt winds, very good in a cross wind and in general a great aeroplane to fly. One of the best bi-planes I have flown. I had the great fun one day flying this aircraft close to a nudist coloney and above the place was a chap in a Cameron hot air baloon (bright red). He was leaning out of the basket looking down at the ground I think hoping to see some nudies. I came in from the other side of the ballon with the Se-5A and with my lewis gun up top of the wing and copper exagust pipe and camouflage the SE-5A looked great. I came around the side of the ballon straight passed this chap. He got such a fright he almost fell out of the ballon with fright. The last I saw of him, he was shaking his fist at me!!!One other great moment I had in the SE5-A I was flying along a lonely beach about 40 ft above the sand and came across some fishing kits used for launching fishing lines. They are a real hazzard to an aeroplane. I climb up to 500ft and then saw a single figure further up along the beach and so I decided to land the SE-5A on the beach. That was all fine and I taxied to a halt. I left the engine running and got out. This chap was a very old native man and the beach was close to a military bombing range. I said hello and he said to me "The wars still on"!!!!. I really was stuck for words and I said Ya its still on!!!!. I talked a bit and then got back in the SE-5A and flew away!!!

[Guest]

Thanks Mark, but I was more concerned about copyright issues.

Grahame, Yes, I am aware of those issues and will try and clear them first, I do not think there will be a problem as the drawings & instructions are not marked with any such notices, (They are merely typed and a simple diagram on 2 A4 Sheets of Paper and were produced over 20 years ago, that is how long I have had this now !!)

Nonetheless I will try and clear the issues first and put a relevant credit to the now defunct ASP plans service on there.

Anyway, I will not detract from your thread any further as I am very much enjoying seeing this plane come together, more pics soon please !!

Regards.....Mark.

[Guest]

Hello,

he SE-5A was built of plans that came out of Canada. In fact it was a re-draw of the Curry Watt and english homebuilt bi-plane. Your comments are most interesting and correct about the tail plane volume.In fact the taiplane volume on the plans was short some 12% and the extra added in the full size aeroplane. I like your comments about Centre of Gravity and Bi-plane you are so very correct. es the Tiger was built for training and it was a great aeroplane for that. There is an old saying if you can fly a Tiger you can fly anything! I flew a tiger in cropdusting spraying potatoes. A cessna 180 was very easy to fly after that. About Modelling you chaps are really right at the top of your game. Question: The electric motor idea seems cleaner and better for me. What is the down side.

[Greyhead]

The front end is covered with litho plate and all those rivets certainly take away the plainness. It looks quite battered but from what little original photographic evidence I can find that’s par for the course.





The radiator drain cock is very prominent; it is made from a M2 nut and closed loop adaptor (I use these a lot and sometimes even for closed loops!!) with a brass cross piece, the body is from plastic tube blended in using 5 minute epoxy and micro balloons. The lot is painted with Humbrol brass paint mixed with a touch of matt black to “weather” it

[Guest]

Graham, metallic finishes come in so may varied types depending on not just the metal but also the location and operating conditions. I think your weathered brass looks perfect for such an application and will be a technique well worth remembering.

If you are considering a metallic finish in a well used but polished situation such as the brass work and copper work on the bridge of a ship I have discovered that a coat of the original humbrol metallic paint followed by a coat of Tamiya clear smoke acrylic is very effective.

It gives the humbrol a nice shine at the same time acting as a wash and filling in the shadowed areas that don't get the same degree of polish. I was very pleased with the effect when I tried it.

[wonwinglo]

Well Mignet it is good to have you here,a crop sprayer as well eh ! there are lots of advantages with electric that appeal,the cleanliness with no fuel to wipe away,you can go out flying at a minutes notice without worry that you need old clothes on that the fuel will rot,things are certainly getting better these days with powerful lithium batteries that whilst they need careful handling with correct chargers and speed controllers give real performance,and the big climb in powerful outrunner motors to power our models allied with the ability to use materials that do not need fuel proofer,there are not really any downsides that I can think of,except perhaps that at the moment models like Grahames S.E.5A here still need big motors up front,whilst there have been attempts to gear up electric motors for large models they are relatively expensive at the moment.

Almost forgot the biggest plus,we have a problem here in the UK with noise sensitive neighbours,speaking personally that is the biggest plus side to electric power.

An electric Flea would be a great choice for you,I certainly intend to do one once settled again.

Hello,he SE-5A was built of plans that came out of Canada. In fact it was a re-draw of the Curry Watt and english homebuilt bi-plane. Your comments are most interesting and correct about the tail plane volume.In fact the taiplane volume on the plans was short some 12% and the extra added in the full size aeroplane. I like your comments about Centre of Gravity and Bi-plane you are so very correct. es the Tiger was built for training and it was a great aeroplane for that. There is an old saying if you can fly a Tiger you can fly anything! I flew a tiger in cropdusting spraying potatoes. A cessna 180 was very easy to fly after that. About Modelling you chaps are really right at the top of your game. Question: The electric motor idea seems cleaner and better for me. What is the down side.

[Guest]

Hello Barry,

Thanks for the information on electric models. Could you recommend a first time kit. I have no radio control experience and so I need some advice from you if possible. I figure I need to spend $1000 on the project. Would like something stable. Speeds not an issue as I need to come to terms with how to fly a radio model. Thanks

Mignet

[wonwinglo]

Mignet,I have sent you a pm,we can take this subject to a fresh thread to avoid cluttering up Grahames S.E.5A build and detracting from it,thank you.

Hello Barry,Thanks for the information on electric models. Could you recommend a first time kit. I have no radio control experience and so I need some advice from you if possible. I figure I need to spend $1000 on the project. Would like something stable. Speeds not an issue as I need to come to terms with how to fly a radio model. Thanks

Mignet

[Greyhead]

When faced with the need for lots of wing ribs, in the case of the SE5a 64 ribs and 72 riblets, cutting them out individually is very time consuming and boring, an easy way is the use the “sandwich method”, which involves fixing several balsa “blanks” between 2 “template” ribs. (I’m taking a series of photos of the procedure and will eventually upload them as a “tutorial”)


The root ribs are from 2 layers of 1/16th ply; the first is a “full” rib as shown and then a “skeleton” rib will be glued on when most of the construction is complete





When you see the pile of blanks it makes you realise just how many ribs there are!





The blanks have the hole for the leading edge drilled, using a very sharp drill bit, a ply rib is taped to a set of blanks using the leading edge carbon fibre tube as a guide before drilling the remaining holes with the drill in a vertical drill stand to make sure the holes are straight.

[wonwinglo]

Grahame,there is nothing more satisfying than making ribs in this fashion in my opinion,my variation is to use screwed rod to clamp the ribs together before using the razor plane/sanding block on them,I like your idea of useing carbon fibre tubes for the wing leading edges,nice and straight.

[Guest]

And in agreement with Barry above,

This is certainly a method I have used many times and it always works well, nothing worse than having to make several wing ribs the same but this method makes it a lot easier and more pleasurable....and more importantly gives a nice accurate wing at the end of it all.

mmmm I can still smell glow fuel on my hands after today.....love that smell !!!

Regards.....Mark.

[Greyhead]

Today I’ve made a complete SE5a rib set and written a “Sandwich Method Tutorial”. I dread to think how long this lot would have taken cutting them out individually!