Lancaster programme tonight

[stona]

Just turned on the goggle box and noticed a programme on BBC 2 tonight at 19.00 about the Lancaster.

That's in twenty minutes!

It's John Sergeant again. I didn't think much of his Spitfire programme but anything with Lancasters in it can't be bad.

Steve

[Guest]

All the good stuff is on when I'm away!

I agree with the Spitfire program however I could watch Spitfires in the air all night irrespective of what else is padding it out!

[papa 695]

Just missed it will have to watch it on I-player But thanks for the heads up Steve

[john i am]

Only 1 British flying lanc left such a shame but a great programme thanks for the heads up cheers John [ATTACH]86201.IPB[/ATTACH]

[Dave W]

It was on a couple of weeks ago.Nice to see John Sargents genuine enthusiasm for the Lancaster.

[stona]

I know that these programmes are fairly lightweight (in historical terms) and have to have a bit of a human interest story. I have no problem with any of that. The only thing that really bugged me was the section covering the operation against Peenemunde in August 1943.

The Peenemunde raid had nothing to do with the V-1 flying bombs. I can't put it any more simply than that. Eisenhower's comment that the invasion might have been 'written off' had the Germans bombarded the Portsmouth/Southampton area six months earlier , which he made in his post war book 'Crusade in Europe', referred to V-1s not V-2s and was quoted out of context in the programme. Really bad history!

There were other rather dodgy bits, but I'll let them pass

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

Will have a gaze and thanks Steve.

The Peenemunde raid had nothing to do with the V-1 flying bombs. I can't put it any more simply than that. Eisenhower's comment that the invasion might have been 'written off' had the Germans bombarded the Portsmouth/Southampton area six months earlier , which he made in his post war book 'Crusade in Europe', referred to V-1s not V-2s and was quoted out of context in the programme. Really bad history!



Cheers

Steve

Apologies Steve but the para. above I am not sure if you are for against and who said what in the programme.

Only read your warning about the programme as it was finishing. Would have watched it despite my annoyance at John Sergeant. He used to be good as a correspondent but since then ???

Laurie

[stona]

The implication in the programme was that had the Peenemunde raid not been made then the German's might have been able to bombard the invasion ports, even preventing Overlord in 1944. Eisenhower's comment referred to V-1s and was used in the programme to support this contention. I've seen this elsewhere too and it has become one of those myths justified by repetition.

Ignoring other salient facts like the V-1 not having anything like the accuracy to obtain the concentrations necessary to do this, the Peenemunde raid had no connection with operations against the V-1. Peenemunde itself was a research establishment devoted to German rocketry. The raid on it was a raid against the V-2 and inadvertently other rocket programmes , like the anti aircraft 'wasserfall' system, which suffered a fatal blow, and the two stage A-9 rocket designed to reach as far as Glasgow.

The raid was a success, precipitating the costly and time consuming dispersal of the V-2 programme. Testing moved to Poland and famously production shifted to the huge and expensive tunnel complexes in the Harz mountains.

Sources both German and allied agree fairly well that the delay to the programme was about two months and that eventual production was also reduced. It has been estimated that the raid prevented the launch of between 700 and 800 rockets with the consequent saving of life.

For this the RAF lost forty bombers (23 Lancasters, 15 Halifaxes, 2 Stirlings) and two intruder aircraft (a Beaufighter and a Mosquito). 288 men from Bomber Command and 2 from Fighter Command were lost of whom 245 were killed. The total cost was somewhat glossed over in the programme.

This also belies the impression given that the raid was carried out by Lancasters. Nearly 200 Halifaxes flew with the Main Force and 54 Stirlings were in the first wave attacking the housing estate.

I don't want to tear the programme to bits, though I seem to be doing so. I realise that it wasn't supposed to be an attempt at heavy weight history but I do object to the perpetration, or in this case perpetuation, of myths.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

very touching when the daughter visited the wreckage in the lake where her fathers plane went down to finally say good bye to her dad

[Guest]

Yes an interesting subject Steve with many accounts.

My favourites is the Prof. R V Jones, who worked for the RAF, which details the V 1 testing and rocket experimentation at Peenemunde. This is where Jones stands up to Lindemann , Lord Sherwell, and Churchill's guru on science in the cabinet war meeting. He details the intelligence they have gained through photos, agents in the field, and the radio information being passed by the Germans.

After the meeting the raid on Peenemunde was organised and carried out.

Jones was all for making the main purpose of the raid to obliterate the machine shop. He contended that the design work was all but complete. That the wiping out of many scientists was to late they had finished there work. So they went for the scientists rather than the machine shop.

Unfortunately the raid did not wipe out the senior men neither did it destroy most of the plant and most importantly the machine tools. These were then transported to other sites to continue the work.

Most unfortunate is that the worst hit, by pathfinders marking incorrectly (such is war), the foreign and pressed workers premises which was all but obliterated.

So it was half successful. Only speculation can predict the outcome if it had been a greater success. Possibly the virtual end in terms of time for the V2 rocket.

On the Southampton being targeted by the V1. Hardly likely. One I doubt that the German knew what was going on in Southampton. Two the position they sited their ski take off's in France was to greater distance from Southampton. The V1 best distance being 160 miles.

If you want a great read "Most Secret War" R V Jones. How much he and his team did for Britain and the war effort is impossible to calculate. The books as written is valuable in the fun that could be had in such an important pursuit and at such a time. Very funny in parts. Plus it is written in layman terms.

Laurie

[Guest]

I actually went for a "Taxi" ride in "Just Jane" last time I was at home. What an unbeleivable experience not only from the technical point of view but also from the fact that I was sat there at the end of the grass with all four Merlins thundering away just as many thousands of youngsters did all those years ago never to return. A poignant moment.

If they get her airworthy, and it looks like they should, there will be two British ones airworthy. Another point of interest is the fact that the Canadian Lanc will be in the UK for the month of August doing shows alongside the BoB Memorial flight aircraft. It looks like this may never happen again though when she goes back to Canada.

Something else I didn't know until I sat in "Just Jane" was the fact that there was no co-pilot seat. If the pilot was incapacitated you had to get him out of the seat and get another man in there before you could fly the plane again.

[Guest]

Oh yes what an experience Richard. At a Battle of Britain Jersey Show a few years ago I was asked to film a flight. The Lanc. always lands in Jersey for the night. I was running a small film/editing unit in the island.

Who was the clown who said, sorry to busy.

Hang my head in disgust. What an idiot. Sitting in the cockpit filming a fight.

Laurie

[Guest]

Doh! I'm in Australia.

John

[Guest]

Yes an interesting subject Steve with many accounts.My favourites is the Prof. R V Jones, who worked for the RAF, which details the V 1 testing and rocket experimentation at Peenemunde. This is where Jones stands up to Lindemann , Lord Sherwell, and Churchill's guru on science in the cabinet war meeting. He details the intelligence they have gained through photos, agents in the field, and the radio information being passed by the Germans.

After the meeting the raid on Peenemunde was organised and carried out.

Jones was all for making the main purpose of the raid to obliterate the machine shop. He contended that the design work was all but complete. That the wiping out of many scientists was to late they had finished there work. So they went for the scientists rather than the machine shop.

Unfortunately the raid did not wipe out the senior men neither did it destroy most of the plant and most importantly the machine tools. These were then transported to other sites to continue the work.

Most unfortunate is that the worst hit, by pathfinders marking incorrectly (such is war), the foreign and pressed workers premises which was all but obliterated.

So it was half successful. Only speculation can predict the outcome if it had been a greater success. Possibly the virtual end in terms of time for the V2 rocket.

On the Southampton being targeted by the V1. Hardly likely. One I doubt that the German knew what was going on in Southampton. Two the position they sited their ski take off's in France was to greater distance from Southampton. The V1 best distance being 160 miles.

If you want a great read "Most Secret War" R V Jones. How much he and his team did for Britain and the war effort is impossible to calculate. The books as written is valuable in the fun that could be had in such an important pursuit and at such a time. Very funny in parts. Plus it is written in layman terms.

Laurie

Didn't 617 squadron take the Peenumunde raid?

John

[Guest]

Do not know John if they were part of the force.

There were 600 approx on the raid so there were a good number of squadrons in that make up.

There were also raids to provide diversionary attention to confuse the German nightfighters.

Have to find out about 617 which was the Dambusters Squadron and if they were on that raid. Cannot remember any mention of them.

Laurie