Lancaster programme tonight

[stona]

The Peenemunde bombing was carried out in three waves.

1st wave (00.15-00.30): Targeted the Housing Estate. 54 Stirlings and 12 Lancasters of 3 Group. 145 Halifaxes of 4 Group. 14 Pathfinder Backers-Up. 19 non-marking Pathfinders.

2nd wave (00.31-00.42): Targeted Production Works. 113 Lancasters of 1 Group. 9 Pathfinder Shifters. 12 Pathfinder Backers-Up.

3rd wave (00.43-00.55): Targeted Experimental Works. 117 lancasters of 5 Group. 52 Halifaxes and 9 Lancasters of 6 Group. 6 Pathfinder Shifters. 12 Pathfinder Backers-Up.

The plan was to destroy all the facilities on the site, not simply to go after the personnel. Machine tools are notoriously difficult to destroy as recorded in German reports on bombing and supported by the findings of the various post war bombing surveys. They almost require a direct hit to ensure destruction.

The bombing, for a variety of reasons, failed to achieve the concentration hoped for in all three bombing areas, but the raid was still a qualified success.

The original Operational Order states:

"The whole complex, which covers an area of some 8,000 yards by 2,000 yards, includes the experimental station, assembly plant and living quarters housing the scientific and technical experts. The destruction of this experimental station, the large factory workshops and the killing of the scientific and technical experts would retard the production of this new equipment and contribute largely to increasing the effectiveness of the bomber offensive."

The last point is a bit confusing but panders to the official cover story, that Peenemunde was developing new R.D.F. (radar) equipment.

The intent of the raid was clear:

"Intention. To attack and destroy the Experimental R.D.F. establishment at Peenemunde."

617 Squadron did not take part in this operation.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

No doubt those were the orders etc. Steve.

But it is of interest that Jones as the instigator of the raid and knew more about the happenings at Peenemunde (god I spell this incorrectly every time) wanted the raid to concentrate on the "development works and installation works". According to Jones Bomber Command also wanted to make that their main effort. Not to forget that Jones scientific intelligence group was attached to the RAF.

Jones says that Sandys the minister (pain in the neck from all that I have read) convinced Bomber Command it was even more important to concentrate the raid on the housing estate which contained the homes of the scientists and engineers.

From all that I have read I think Jones was right. Jones was not unfortunately asked for his opinion which is incredible as the man who knew the most. My opinion is they should have tried to destroy the factory completely machinery, testing equipment drawings the lot.

Who knows but it is great to speculate.

On Jones he said Sandys came out at the cabinet meeting with every rocket being capable of killing 4000. Fortunately he was wrong. But I suppose you have to gift to the man the fact that figure probably concentrated the minds.

The unsavoury details. In all the V2 caused 2754 deaths in London. 6520 casualties. About 2 people killed for every rocket. How many more with out the Peenemunde raid is beyond my info. and speculative. But if 2 months is a guide it would have been quite a few especially as it is reported that the V2 was gradually improved with the failure rate and accuracy becoming rapidly deadly as time went on

Laurie

[stona]

Laurie, they did try to destroy the factory, test facilities, experimental station and the rest. 113 Lancasters targeted the Production Works and 117 the Experimental Works. Given the Lancaster's heavier bomb load more bombs were targeted here than on the Housing Estate. The unfortunate fact is that they failed to achieve the concentration required to do the job.

The housing was hit hardest not by design but by chance. It was the target of the first wave and despite errors in the first marking, corrections were made by the Backers-Up and the Master Bomber ordered bombing on these accurately placed target indicators. The bombing of subsequent waves became widely dispersed. Some third wave bombs fell more than three miles from the aiming point. The most accurate late bombing was performed by some 5 Group crews who ignored the marking and the Master Bomber and made 'time and distance' runs to the target.

The personnel were an explicit target of the operation, but not THE target. At least one important scientist was killed. Dr. Thiel was the propulsion specialist working on the 'wasserfall' system and his demise undoubtedly hampered development of the system which never became operational.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

Agree with all that Steve. Just to confirm that I am not trying to score points at all. Just like to explore these matters and to do that I like to have other interested parties put points as it is a great learning institution logical and informed argument. It is nice to have an interchange of ideas and one I very much appreciate.

My point and that of Prof. Jones that the focus should have been on the production works. As for the Scientists the Nazis regime soon remedied that by transferring from other projects. I suppose you could then say this had the plundering effect on those other projects. Or as Montgomery would have said the "the crumbling effect". To crumble.

Another interesting fact, one which obviously confuses some film makers, was that Jones and his crowd were monitoring the development of the V1 which was also using Peenemunde (got it right) to test these things. It just exemplifies the high intelligence of British units through out the war. the accuracy of the work built on photos, work from in the field and pure science. The figures that Jonese set down for the V2 were so accurate and despite figures from, as found later, other types he stuck to his guns and was proved so right.

Also to bring attention to the Aircraft Photo Recon. units, the Spitfires and Mosquitos, who provided incredible information for the scientists to work on. As a lot of this work was over naturally sensitive areas they were dangerous missions. Again Jones asked for these missions and the comrade between scientists and Photo pilots was first class. Jones realised that it was imperative for the pilots to know not only what but why they were carrying out this work.

I admire Jones very much as he could of disappeared during the war into some University to work on his wants but decided to stay to help in the war effort. He was in his early twenties and his demeanour, work and determination were of the highest especially for one so young. He suffered through this in his later career. His programmes on TV about his war were an inspiration .

Finally he stood up to Churchill. I just love that. Churchill also. He loathed yes men and like young men with believe. To all just read "Most Secret War". It is an incredible read with humour and excitement. Put this among my favourites. Just another "Silk and Cynide" by Leo Marks. Youch both exciting books with humour.

Laurie

[stona]

There was a wind tunnel at Peenemunde which was involved in some V-1 work but this was undamaged by the bombing.

The V-1 was not designed and developed at Peenemunde, though the airfield at Karlshagen (Peenemunde West) was the location for its test flying programme. The British were aware that the Me 163 was being tested here too. Compared to the Wermacht's large and sophisticated facility on the other side of the peninsula the Luftwaffe's facility was very modest. The V-1 test area, right at the northern tip of the peninsula, was unknown to the allies and consequently not targeted. It was close to the airfield and to the main rocket testing area, neither of which were targeted either. Also not targeted were the power station, the liquid oxygen plant or the large Trassenheide camp for foreign workers, though the latter would be hit despite lying a mile to the south of the nearest targeted area (housing estate/army barracks).

The raid was aimed at the rocket programme, primarily the V-2. You've read Jones' book and will know that it was his interpretation of a photograph from the 12th June sortie (flown by Flt.Lt. Lenton and Sgt. Haney) showing a V-2 on its side on Test Stand VII that precipitated the raid. The photograph had earlier been misinterpreted by an RAF intelligence officer. At this time the British were unaware that Peenemunde had even a slight connection to the V-1 programme. This understanding came much later that year.

Test Stand VII, from which V-2s had been launched since October 1942, had earlier been understood as a test site for new explosives which were supposed to be manufactured in the two large buildings which were in fact assembling V-2 rockets.

British estimates were that the raid prevented the launch of 740 V-2s. Of these 155 would have fallen in London and 155 in more or less densely populated areas of Britain. Those falling in London were estimated to potentially cause 809 fatalities. A further 370 rockets would have fallen on continental Europe, principally Antwerp causing potentially 1,930 fatalities there. This is all very cold blooded statistical analysis, but it was undertaken at the time.

Steve

[Guest]

.......My favourites is the Prof. R V Jones, who worked for the RAF, which details the V 1 testing and rocket experimentation at Peenemunde. This is where Jones stands up to Lindemann , Lord Sherwell, and Churchill's guru on science in the cabinet war meeting. He details the intelligence they have gained through photos, agents in the field, and the radio information being passed by the Germans.

........

Laurie

Jones was the Physics prof at Aberdeen and I had him for a year. He was the best teacher I ever had, anywhere. His enthusiasm and obvious knowledge was reinforced by many demonstrations. I have his book "Most Secret War". A very good read. He should have been given a Knighthood for his inventiveness and perseverance which made an important contribution to the war effort. Such people are rare.

[Guest]

Yes I agree with you Steve (KIR) . But he did at least get a CBE. Think in those days he was to young to get a Knighthood. Establishment and all of that.

I would add Steve to your observations absolute stubbornness. Love that he was not swayed in his argument despite those heavy guns trained on him.

The details in the book about the size of the V2 rocket head I found were something else. He stood up to the lot of them and was proved right. I am sure you were dead lucky to get him as your Prof. In the television programmes he hosted his explanations were crystal clear to the layman. Not easy and the sign of a great teacher and clarity in his own thinking.

Laurie