Is "Scale-Effect" a myth?

[wasdale32]

Ok - This might be opening a proverbial can of worms but I've been following a thread on another platform where there is a debate running as to whether colour perception is influenced by scale.

To put it in other words - "if I paint my full size xxx in a specific colour and my 1:35 / 1:48 / 1:76 etc scale model of xxx in EXACTLY the same colour (or even the exact same paint) would the scale model 'look' a different colour/shade/hue?"

The colour question also applies to gloss/matt finishes as well.

My own view is that the human eye is not a precise measuring device - I find certain colours/finishes are perceived as more pronounced at a smaller scale ( particularly primary colours and black or white ) and they can make a small scale model look toy-like so using more muted colours can give a better overall impression.

I'm interested to hear individual opinions on this....

Mark

[Guest]

Everyone to their own preferences. However, as one individual opinion - I don't have straight black among my colours any more after reading this article on the subject. I had never given any thought to the issue prior to doing so, but I must say that my finished models look 100% more realistic since I did and followed the advice.

[wasdale32]

The amount of illumination falling on a surface has an effect on the perceived colour of that surface - a large surface area receives more illumination than a smaller one - if you've ever looked at paint swatches in a DIY store and then compared the same paint on an entire wall you will appreciate this point the larger area will usually appear slightly different but when you hold up the swatch they are the same. This is exactly what Martyn is describing with his card examples.

[Dave Ward]

Well, the air has particles suspended in it ( dust, pollen etc ), and these affect the transmission of light/colour the further away an object is the more light/colour is absorbed. As an extreme example think of the difference between a cold & frosty morning and a mild misty morning - you can see shapes, but the colours are muted.
Personally, I think the idea of compensating for it is about as useful as the theologians debating about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin!
Dave

[Gern]

That may well be the biggest can of worms in modelling Mark! This topic crops up regularly and for everyone that reads it, there's a different opinion.

There are so many factors affecting the actual colour of an object - which start with the source of any pigments used in the manufacture, going through how the colour was applied to what type of surface, when it was applied, what weather conditions has it been exposed to and what background colours surround it. All of these will have varying affects on the 'real' colour. Then you get to the human eye itself. How it works and perceives colour is slightly different for all of us. You and I will 'see' different colours even when we look at the same thing.

You're right about the larger surfaces receiving more illumination. This means the same colour applied to a small object appears darker, so we tend to lighten paint colours - the smaller the scale, the more we lighten the colours.

We had a guy on the forum a few years ago who built some really spectacular scratch built models. He looked into the scale effect and spent hours with mathematical formulas and experiments. While his final results were always fabulous, I couldn't tell the difference between about 90% of the sample colours he tried!

Whatever you do, don't go down the road of not being able to finish your kits because you're not sure of getting the colours exactly right.
Probably the best advice is: "If it looks right to you, it is right!"

[minitnkr]

I model in a small scale, 1/87. The discussion regarding black finishes are striking in my scale. I use straight black only for very small items that are to be presented as very new and very black. Because there are so many color variations in 1:1, other colors are less critical.

[outrunner]

Not being an expert modeller or one who enters competitions colours do not bother me. If it looks good to me then that will do. :smiling5:

Andy.

[Tim Marlow]

There are two basic schools of thought around this Mark.
One school says “if it is right, it looks right” and uses paint colour matched against original sources.
Another school says “if it looks right it is right” and mixes down the base colour, or uses a colour that suits their impression, until they think it looks right.

The idea of “scale colour” or “scale effect” belongs firmly in the first school. In fact, back in the days of Noah and the ark I remember one of the paint companies producing a “scale tinter” to enable the modeller to recreate this effect accurately for their preferred scale. Trouble is, as an approach it was rubbish.

Unless you paint and view your models in laboratory controlled conditions you are on a hiding to nothing. There are so many variables involved you simply cannot “scale” colour. Everything, time of day, weather, age of paint, viewing direction, distance from the object, how bad the hangover of the paint shop forum was when he mixed the paint, how old and yellow the base varnish was, and anything else you can think of, affects the colour. Your brain interprets colour differently depending upon the surrounding colours, and colour changes by the minute as the ambient lighting and time of day varies.

All you can do is use your best guess and be satisfied with the result! Yes, I’m firmly in the second school because the first school simply cannot be applied reliably.

[wasdale32]

It's nice to see that, so far, everybody seems to lead towards a pragmatic approach of "if it looks right..." as opposed to some of the responders on the other discussion who seemed to thing that matching the model colour precisely to that of the original was the only valid approach. Obviously using a colour that is visibly VERY different to that used on the 1:1 is not going to earn any competition points and will unleash the rivet-counters and Pantone matching critics but "almost the same" can be acceptable in most cases.

I suppose the other question is "how will your model be viewed?" - in person under daylight or tungsten or via photos. Obviously photos can be tweaked and original film stock was renowned for being more sensitive to certain colours so the final result wasn't always true to life....

[Airborne01]

This is so subjective I think; I've seen a complete Unit's equipment painted for an inspection by VIPs - all appeared different in colour to some degree with the difference most marked in the closest ranks - however the paint was all procured at the same time! I'm strictly in the second camp on this one!
Steve

[BarryW]

Some paint companies produce colours allowing for scale effect.

I am not totally convinced that this is a good idea or even that scale effect is a ‘thing’.

What I do know is that light gets reflected in different ways on large surfaces than smaller ones. This is where modulating a colour on a model works well as in doing so you can better replicate the effect. Consequently a slightly lightened shade in places where light catches and graduated to darker shades elsewhere help make a model look less like painted plastic and more like the real thing in miniature.

For that reason I cannot help but think that paint companies should not allow for scale effect and that it is a pointless concern for modellers. After all via pre-shading, post shading and mixing in lighter shades on a model there is no point in worrying about it.

[Tim Marlow]

The amount of illumination falling on a surface has an effect on the perceived colour of that surface - a large surface area receives more illumination than a smaller one - if you've ever looked at paint swatches in a DIY store and then compared the same paint on an entire wall you will appreciate this point the larger area will usually appear slightly different but when you hold up the swatch they are the same. This is exactly what Martyn is describing with his card examples.

Hi Mark. Bit of a common misconception here.
The amount of light energy impacting on a surface is the same per unit area be it large or small if they are experiencing the same light source. What we actually “see“ is the reflected energy quanta that are not absorbed by the molecular bonds of the subject pigment. The colour we see is due to the fact that reflected light is no longer full spectrum. This is basic physics and cannot be altered by anything surrounding the subject.
However, what does happen is that the interpretation of the scene by your brain is modified by the surrounding or adjacent area. A great example of that is shown here…..

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/another-brain-frying-optical-illusion-what-color-are-these-spheres

[Tim Marlow]

Fascinating subject though :thumb2:

[CarolsHusband]

I've never thought about this but my gut reaction is that 'scale-effect colour' should be loaded into a boat with 'wind chill factor' & and using an SPL meter to calibrate surround sound home cinema. That boat should then be scuttled and used for depth charge practice.

I am happy to qualify my opinion if required but you're probably either with me or you're not :rolling:

[outrunner]

My head hurts!

Andy.