Historical innacuracies that get up your nose.

[stona]

One of my favourite films is The Cruel Sea....... another is Ice Cold In Alex,Si

Great films and there you touch on another point. They are both great films that happen to be set in wartime making them first good films and secondly good war films.

A film like Red Tails, which I mentioned previously, is just a bad film. All the fancy CGI and aeroplanes in the world, along with a wartime setting cannot redeem it.

Many historians regurgitate almost word for word official histories even when they have been contradicted, often by the men in command at the time. This leads to myths that will not go away. One of my most annoying is that 'the RAF was stronger at the end of the BoB than the beginning',first published in a wartime pamphlet/history of the battle (Battle of Britain, HMSO ) and subsequently repeated by historians who should know better. It was a view which Dowding went out of his way to contradict.

Another one in the program yesterday was that Duxford's 'Big Wing' delivered a 'hammer blow' to the Luftwaffe. The facts are that the Wing was ordered on 32 occasions. 9 times it failed to form up at all. Only 7 times did it actually engage in combat and only once did Bader and his men get to the attackers before other defending units. On that one occasion they shot down 8 bombers, not the 57 they claimed.

The Wing absorbed 5 squadrons from the relatively weak 12 Group and resulted in a shortage of fighter cover for important targets in the Midlands and East Anglia. It's hardly surprising that Dowding was consistently opposed to its use.

Cheers

Steve

[Neil]

......I share your pain on many of the others, though I do like Zulu, just to see Michael Caine doing posh

Cheers

Steve

What! Next you'll be saying he didn't actually say "Don't you, chuck, that bloody spear"!

Battle of the Bulge - shoddy all the way through - good movie but complete pants in the history research!

[Ian M]

Amd all of the above is why the films I enjoy most are CGI cartoons. LOL

There are though some films that you are quite happy watching and some thing catches your eye and you think that is soooo wrong.

Ian M

[Dave W]

I'm currently watching Pearl harbour.Just got to the bit where The Yanks fighting in the Battle of Britain with the Eagle squadron.Hes just been hit at low level above the sea.Theres oil all over the windscreen and a fire in the cockpit.Of course, the canopy won't open.But he still has time to draw his revolver,shoot a few holes in the canopy,then smash his way through the canopy with his elbows.Dont you just love these films?!.

[eddiesolo]

And after all that he actually manages to get out and is picked up and helps to save the day later on...yeah!

As I have said, we have to remember that they are films and such should never be viewed as accurate for information, saying that some documentaries can be a bit iffy.

Si

[Alan 45]

Thing is my kids school is showing films like pearl harbour and saving private Ryan to teach history the mind boggles

[eddiesolo]

Thing is my kids school is showing films like pearl harbour and saving private Ryan to teach history the mind boggles

Next thing is kids will believe that the Simpsons are real etc etc. From a standpoint of showing what war is and certain tragic consequences relating to loved ones, friendships, home life etc they can be an aid, especially the new wave of war films that show us the pain and hurt and more emotion-war is final act when man becomes a savage. But from a historic point of view children should be told that various pieces are fiction, or items couldn't be sourced etc and not to take any items should as read that this what they used etc.

Si

[Gern]

Thing is my kids school is showing films like pearl harbour and saving private Ryan to teach history the mind boggles

Hadn't you heard Alan? Education now is supposed to be 'fun'. We can't upset the little darlings by making them sit down and learn a load of facts can we?

Gern

[Alan 45]

Hadn't you heard Alan? Education now is supposed to be 'fun'. We can't upset the little darlings by making them sit down and learn a load of facts can we?Gern

That is exactly what I was told at parents evening when I asked if it was true , I tried to point out it was a bad idea due to it being entertainment and not true fact , to which the reply was well it gets the kids interested in history !

I was just dumb struck lol

[Alan 45]

Next thing is kids will believe that the Simpsons are real etc etc. From a standpoint of showing what war is and certain tragic consequences relating to loved ones, friendships, home life etc they can be an aid, especially the new wave of war films that show us the pain and hurt and more emotion-war is final act when man becomes a savage. But from a historic point of view children should be told that various pieces are fiction, or items couldn't be sourced etc and not to take any items should as read that this what they used etc.Si

I agree mate but kids are impressionable and they will believe that pilots could shoot there way out of a burning cockpit and that submarines could act lite fighter planes underwater

[Guest]

GAnother one in the program yesterday was that Duxford's 'Big Wing' delivered a 'hammer blow' to the Luftwaffe. The facts are that the Wing was ordered on 32 occasions. 9 times it failed to form up at all. Only 7 times did it actually engage in combat and only once did Bader and his men get to the attackers before other defending units. On that one occasion they shot down 8 bombers, not the 57 they claimed.

The Wing absorbed 5 squadrons from the relatively weak 12 Group and resulted in a shortage of fighter cover for important targets in the Midlands and East Anglia. It's hardly surprising that Dowding was consistently opposed to its use.

Cheers

Steve

Nice appreciation Steve. To many people including the makers of the Bader film were taken in. Leigh Mallory, Bader's boss, was weak and Bader took advantage not in any way knowing, includes Leigh Mallory, what Dowding and Park were up to. Park in my opinion was superb in hanging it all together. A great commander who should have been along side Eisenhower in Normandy not the other one. Name escapes me but another clever devil an RAF type who thought he could out think an Army Commander ie Montgomery.

Laurie

[stona]

Fiction is fiction and should not be confused with fact. The problem is that film audiences which are mostly ill informed about real historical events easily confuse what they see in films like 'Valkyrie', 'Red Tails' or 'U507' with historical facts. In fact they rarely bear any relation to historical reality at all.

There won't be many here who haven't enjoyed the 'Battle of Britain' film, and not just for Susannah York in her undies. It does however reflect the myth of the battle rather than the actual facts. It's a fun movie to watch (I have to squint at those Buchons pretending to be Bf 109s) but it's a work of fiction. I wouldn't want my children to 'learn' about the battle from the film.

It's an issue even for films which are far more rigorously researched. Relatively recent German films like 'Das Boot' and 'Der Untergang' (Downfall) are based on the best research available and attempt to give a historically accurate portrayal of events, but they are still works of fiction.

I don't think that it is fair to tar feature films and documentary films with the same brush. The former's primary function is to entertain and make a lot of money, the latters to educate whilst hopefully entertaining and making some money.

I can give the film 'Battle of Britain' a bit of leeway and enjoy the aeroplanes (real ones) zooming about as well as Susannah York in her undies. I don't see why I should do the same for a supposedly serious documentary of the same name made by the BBC.

Cheers

Steve

[stona]

... along side Eisenhower in Normandy not the other one. Name escapes me.....Laurie

ACM Sir Arthur Tedder.

Cheers

Steve

[AlanG]

Thing is my kids school is showing films like pearl harbour and saving private Ryan to teach history the mind boggles

The first 20 mins of SPR I would say are quite true and realistic. Nothing wrong with that. The rest of the film..............

[Gern]

I can't argue the fact that a lot of films based on 'facts' or telling 'true' stories are rubbish, but we shouldn't totally dismiss fiction as a teaching tool.

There's a tale going round about someone who was reckoned by some to be the greatest teacher the world has ever seen - and he used fiction. Except in his day fiction was known as parables.

Gern