May the Force of F & S be with you.
Cheers,
Richard
Cheers,
Richard
Si & Steve's Animal Antics GB: Oct 2019 - March 2020 Chat thread.
- Thread starter Ian M
- Start date
G
Wisdom you speak you do master Jones. Pewter and plastic there must be and only then will be Jedi master modeller.
May the force be with you.
Pete.
Hi Everyone
I am blogging my first ever Panther soon. I am basing it on the 31st Panzer Regiment of the 5th Panzer Division. This photo is my inspiration
This was taken in November 1944. Now I want to base my model on a Panther from the same regiment but based in February/March 1945. What would a relevant turret number be?? If this one is 213 would the rest of the Kompanie be 211,212, 214 etc or something else?. A simple question I hope and I hope an obvious answer.
Also is it me or do Panthers not have divisional markings or German crosses? Most pictures just seem to have turret numbers only?? (Late war that is)
Thanks in advance.
Steve
I am blogging my first ever Panther soon. I am basing it on the 31st Panzer Regiment of the 5th Panzer Division. This photo is my inspiration
This was taken in November 1944. Now I want to base my model on a Panther from the same regiment but based in February/March 1945. What would a relevant turret number be?? If this one is 213 would the rest of the Kompanie be 211,212, 214 etc or something else?. A simple question I hope and I hope an obvious answer.
Also is it me or do Panthers not have divisional markings or German crosses? Most pictures just seem to have turret numbers only?? (Late war that is)
Thanks in advance.
Steve
G
This is tank No. 3 of 1st platoon of 2nd company — the rest of the platoon would be 211, 212, 214 and 215. The other tanks in the company would be 201 and 202 for the company HQ, then 2nd platoon would have 221, 222, 223, 224 and 225, and 3rd and 4th platoons would be 231–235 and 241–245.
That's good news Jakko. The kit comes with decals of 211 so that's a stroke of luck. Would you put a German cross on the front side of the hull? Would you add a divisional marking? If so whereabouts?. The 5th Panzer Division marking is a yellow cross. Many thanks in advance
Dont worry about the German cross. I have zoomed in on the photo and seen it by the tools
Dont worry about the German cross. I have zoomed in on the photo and seen it by the tools
Stevie,
Most Panthers had their crosses added at the factory. MAN had them in front of the mounted tools almost at the glacis plate. MNH and Daimler Benz behind the tool racks about where the driver's hatch is. Many had div. marks on the front glacis and on a rear stowage box. You have to look closely at the particular vehicle reference photos to be exact and for their location……..
I take it you are building an Ausf. G Panther here. Looking at your photo, the camo used is ambush and not disc……….
Most Panthers had their crosses added at the factory. MAN had them in front of the mounted tools almost at the glacis plate. MNH and Daimler Benz behind the tool racks about where the driver's hatch is. Many had div. marks on the front glacis and on a rear stowage box. You have to look closely at the particular vehicle reference photos to be exact and for their location……..
I take it you are building an Ausf. G Panther here. Looking at your photo, the camo used is ambush and not disc……….
So I need to find out if my Panther is MAN or MHN. I may add the divisional marking on the rear stowage box and muddy it up. That would be a nice bit of added detail.
As for the camo - that was why I couldn't use 213 in the photo. I am assuming that Panthers in the same Kompanie would have had similar/same camo ie disc and ambush on different Panthers in the same Kompanie. Do you think I could get away with that mate??
While your there Allen - the kit allows me to make a late or early production Panther. I would like to make an early one using a story line that it was a left over Panther from another regiment that joined the Kompanie in early 1945. Would that be plausible?
As for the camo - that was why I couldn't use 213 in the photo. I am assuming that Panthers in the same Kompanie would have had similar/same camo ie disc and ambush on different Panthers in the same Kompanie. Do you think I could get away with that mate??
While your there Allen - the kit allows me to make a late or early production Panther. I would like to make an early one using a story line that it was a left over Panther from another regiment that joined the Kompanie in early 1945. Would that be plausible?
Ok Stevie,
First, I think you are too hung up on this disc camo thing. I have never seen a photo of a Panther in disc camo. Three tone, two tone (green and dark Yellow), dark yellow (early base coat) or ambush. Maybe a winter whitewash can be thrown in the mix or even a mottled up scheme....
Are you basing your build on a historical vehicle or a generic one based in the 31st Pz Reg? An Ausf. G or an Ausf. A? Who makes the kit you are going to build? Do you know the difference between the early and late versions and the time frame they were built? Do you have any other pics of Panthers from this unit? Where was this unit fighting in the time frame you want to depict? Do you have any reference to the Panthers alloted to this unit (table of organization or TOE) for the timeframe?
Sorry if I sound like a machine or a rivet counter here, but these are factors you have to consider if you want to build a particular Panther that is historically correct. Even then, there is not 100% accuracy. If you happen to find a pic that shows the front of the Panther, then maybe you could see if the chassis # is visible. If so, I can tell you who made it. I only need the first 3 or 4 digits, or a few more...
Anything is possible later in the war. So many units were thrown together from the remains of other units. Others received brand new tanks into their unit in March and even in April. Panther production ceased in April 1945 due to bombing and the factories being captured by the allies. Here in Bamberg, the US army shot up and found Panther Ausf. D's with zimmerit, that were produced in 1943......
Of course MAN was only 50 some kms down the road from here...…......
First, I think you are too hung up on this disc camo thing. I have never seen a photo of a Panther in disc camo. Three tone, two tone (green and dark Yellow), dark yellow (early base coat) or ambush. Maybe a winter whitewash can be thrown in the mix or even a mottled up scheme....
Are you basing your build on a historical vehicle or a generic one based in the 31st Pz Reg? An Ausf. G or an Ausf. A? Who makes the kit you are going to build? Do you know the difference between the early and late versions and the time frame they were built? Do you have any other pics of Panthers from this unit? Where was this unit fighting in the time frame you want to depict? Do you have any reference to the Panthers alloted to this unit (table of organization or TOE) for the timeframe?
Sorry if I sound like a machine or a rivet counter here, but these are factors you have to consider if you want to build a particular Panther that is historically correct. Even then, there is not 100% accuracy. If you happen to find a pic that shows the front of the Panther, then maybe you could see if the chassis # is visible. If so, I can tell you who made it. I only need the first 3 or 4 digits, or a few more...
Anything is possible later in the war. So many units were thrown together from the remains of other units. Others received brand new tanks into their unit in March and even in April. Panther production ceased in April 1945 due to bombing and the factories being captured by the allies. Here in Bamberg, the US army shot up and found Panther Ausf. D's with zimmerit, that were produced in 1943......
Of course MAN was only 50 some kms down the road from here...…......
G
The simplest thing is to go for a generic Panther rather than a specific vehicle or one from a specific time frame/manufacturer/etc. (I must add that I always find it a bit strange that people habitually go to all this trouble with Panthers and Tigers, but hardly anybody tries it in as much detail with, say, an M60, an FT, a Valentine or even a Sherman.)
G
MAN and MNH Panther Ausf.G,s
MId September - early October 1944 production, no zimmerit.
Some examples:
No-one really knows the exact incept or cancellation dates of these schemes at the various factories, though end-September seems to have been generally agreed upon for the Panther. As this pattern was one of the very few examples of 'ambushed' Panthers that made it as far as the Ardennes it may have even been produced into very early October .
Pete.
MId September - early October 1944 production, no zimmerit.
Some examples:
No-one really knows the exact incept or cancellation dates of these schemes at the various factories, though end-September seems to have been generally agreed upon for the Panther. As this pattern was one of the very few examples of 'ambushed' Panthers that made it as far as the Ardennes it may have even been produced into very early October .
Pete.
G
My mate likes disc camo
My other mate likes MAN.
I like Russian 4 BO simples !
Has this started yet btw ?
My other mate likes MAN.
I like Russian 4 BO simples !
Has this started yet btw ?
Allen - I am not looking to do a historically accurate Panther. It was a complete nightmare when I did it on a Tiger. I am just wanting to create a story line that would be plausible.
The disc camo is a personal challenge for myself. I have some reference photos of it on Panthers in the Ardennes. As you know, many times the camo scheme was left to the men in the field to put on and use their imagination. Its an Ausf G as depicted in the photo. The kit is the RFM one. There are options for both early and late. I wanted to go for early as there is less adjustments to make on the kit parts. I have no other photos of Panthers in the unit but the 213 photo was taken in Nov 44 in Goldap Poland. For the remainder of the war the division continued to retreat and fight in defensive battles on the Eastern Front in Poland, briefly in Courland and East Prussia. It was trapped on the Samland peninsula in April 1945 and parts of the division were evacuated by the German Navy, thereby being able to surrender to the Western Allies at the end of the war. The remainder surrendered to Soviet forces in April 1945I have tried to find a TOE but to no avail. Your last paragraph is what I have designed my story around - a long lost Panther added to the 5th Division and painted in disc camo.
Jakko - I totally agree. I never make this trouble for myself on the other Panzers I build. However I do like to make sure that the model depicted is plausible for the time frame I base it in
The disc camo is a personal challenge for myself. I have some reference photos of it on Panthers in the Ardennes. As you know, many times the camo scheme was left to the men in the field to put on and use their imagination. Its an Ausf G as depicted in the photo. The kit is the RFM one. There are options for both early and late. I wanted to go for early as there is less adjustments to make on the kit parts. I have no other photos of Panthers in the unit but the 213 photo was taken in Nov 44 in Goldap Poland. For the remainder of the war the division continued to retreat and fight in defensive battles on the Eastern Front in Poland, briefly in Courland and East Prussia. It was trapped on the Samland peninsula in April 1945 and parts of the division were evacuated by the German Navy, thereby being able to surrender to the Western Allies at the end of the war. The remainder surrendered to Soviet forces in April 1945I have tried to find a TOE but to no avail. Your last paragraph is what I have designed my story around - a long lost Panther added to the 5th Division and painted in disc camo.
Jakko - I totally agree. I never make this trouble for myself on the other Panzers I build. However I do like to make sure that the model depicted is plausible for the time frame I base it in
Great Pics Pete!!! It does appear that the bottom left Panther turret has zimmerit on it. It is also strange the turret with the # 124 has the 124 painted on the side behind the main gun mantlet. I can't imagine why...Do you have a pic showing more of the turret or possibly the whole tank? 131 is looking good, but I wonder who applied the dot camo......
Finally found the TOE but the best I can do is June 1944 Allen
31st Panzer Regiment
Regimental HQ Company
Battalion HQ Company
1.
Panzer Company (medium)
2.
Panzer Company (medium)
3.
Panzer Company (medium)
4.
Panzer Company (medium)
2nd Battalion
Battalion HQ Company
5.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
6.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
7.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
8.
Panzer Company (medium)
1 June, 1944
Pzkpfw.V
51
Pzkpfw. IV(75mm Lg.)
59
PzBefw.
2
31st Panzer Regiment
Regimental HQ Company
- Signals Platoon
- Staff (light) Tank Platoon
- Panzer-Flak Platoon ( 4 SdKfz.7/1 )
Battalion HQ Company
- Signals Platoon
- Staff (light) Tank Platoon
- Panzer-Flak Platoon ( 3 SdKfz.7/2 )
1.
Panzer Company (medium)
2.
Panzer Company (medium)
3.
Panzer Company (medium)
4.
Panzer Company (medium)
2nd Battalion
Battalion HQ Company
- Signals Platoon
- Staff (light) Tank Platoon
- Panzer-Flak Platoon ( 3 SdKfz.7/1 )
5.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
6.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
7.
Panzer Company (medium)
•
8.
Panzer Company (medium)
1 June, 1944
Pzkpfw.V
51
Pzkpfw. IV(75mm Lg.)
59
PzBefw.
2
Steve/Allen,
Interesting stuff chaps....I know diddly-squit about panthers so good to know who toannoy speak to when I come to build one of mine properly :nerd:
With the start date fast approaching (9 days!) I’ve been putting in as much time at the bench to get my Tiggy to paint stage.
Spent a few hours assembling some AFV club workable tracks. Some minor clean up required but assembling was really straightforward. Gradually working my way through the final additions to model Tiger 332....even doing some of the damage.
Can he get to paint stage in the next 9 day.....dun dun durrrrr:surprised::smiling5:
Interesting stuff chaps....I know diddly-squit about panthers so good to know who to
With the start date fast approaching (9 days!) I’ve been putting in as much time at the bench to get my Tiggy to paint stage.
Spent a few hours assembling some AFV club workable tracks. Some minor clean up required but assembling was really straightforward. Gradually working my way through the final additions to model Tiger 332....even doing some of the damage.
Can he get to paint stage in the next 9 day.....dun dun durrrrr:surprised::smiling5:
Morn Stevie,
The last Panthers shipped east to the 31st Pz Rgt were on 23 Oct. and on 28 Oct. '44. They arrived on 24 and 30 Oct. Each delivery contained 10 Panthers, but no mention of manufacture. There is a chance a straggler could have joined them in early '45.
Your Rye field kit looks nice and is well detailed. Go with the early version and in step 12 you can add the debris cover, part A6, as this was introduced in August '44. The rear storage bins offer 2 variations and a night vision device bin too. The bins with the vertical ribs are from MNH and late production pieces. Use the bins with the X ribbing as they were from MAN, MNH and Daimler-Benz. The 31 Pz Rgt didn't have IR capable panthers in it, so that bin is out. There are small differences between the three main manufacturers of the panther. If you plan on applying zimmerit, this would most likely determine who made the beast. Each manufacturer had their own pattern for the zimmerit..........HTHs
Prost
Allen
Very impressive mate. No need to push it. I still haven't even done the front shields on my Bison yet. Its all hotting up now.
and I thought I was one big Stug nerd, seems not, there's a Panther nut or three out there :tongue-out3:
here's mine for the GB, got the metal barrel and will post sprues etc later, although got the Night fighter GB stalled as well :anguished:
here's mine for the GB, got the metal barrel and will post sprues etc later, although got the Night fighter GB stalled as well :anguished:
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