discussion A what if question

[Guest]

Here is a question that has been buggin me a little, If Hitler had decided to invade Russia first without invading the low countries do you think that he could have toppled Moscow and actually held onto Russia, causing the Russians so many casualties that it would have put them out of the war, then if he had decided to turn his attentions to the low countries and then attack the uk while in control of Russia; do you think he would have stood an actual chance at winning the war?


scott

 

[Alan 45]

I doubt he could have taken Russia, he had a none aggression pact with Moscow, he had crushed all before him in Europe only his hesitation after the battle of France stopped him from taking us


Russia was not expecting Hitler to attack him and that was why the Germans got as far as they did before mounting a serious defence against the Germans


I believe Hitlers big mistake was invading Russia

 

[Alan 45]

I doubt he could have taken Russia, he had a none aggression pact with Moscow, he had crushed all before him in Europe only his hesitation after the battle of France stopped him from taking us


Russia was not expecting Hitler to attack him and that was why the Germans got as far as they did before mounting a serious defence against the Germans


I believe Hitlers big mistake was invading Russia

 

[Guest]

But once he had taken france and the low countries stalin expected him to come knocking then, now if he had completely surprised the Russians and left everyone else alone I actually think it could have made a difference, he would not have to have troops holding france Holland etc so he would have been able to concentrate his full might on Russia, and if he had attacked them sooner as his generals were trying to get him to do they probably would have succeded in taking Moscow.


scott

 

[grumpa]

Hitler may have even taken Russia as it were if he had headed right for Moscow instead of diverting his armies at the last minute. Moscow was the main rail hub of the entire country and without it Russia would have been crippled.

 

[Ian M]

Hitlers biggest mistake was thinking that he was smarter than his advisors. Fortunately .for us he often ignored them.

 

[Alan 45]

I don't think that any of that would of mattered, the only way to have defeated Russia would be to wipe out the entire population


The Russians would never have surrended imo

 

[Ian M]

How about we turn it around. While Adolf was of helping himself to eastern Europe an the low lands, Russia took the party to Berlin...

 

[Alan 45]

The red flag would be flying of the communist party headquarters in Buckingham Palace and George Galloway would be the president of the socialist people's Republic of Britain

 

[grumpa]

Hitlers biggest mistake was thinking that he was smarter than his advisors. Fortunately .for us he often ignored them.

Very true Ian, also the British navy was much to powerful, they would have never had a chance. Distance across the Channel was too great. Besides they were assembling barges and landing craft in the French channel ports but Sir Winston saw to it that they were constantly bombed. Hitler HAD to chuck it in.

 

[PaulTRose]

interesting what if


i dont think he would have won the war but i think he would have held most of europe................invades russia first, takes and holds maybe half of it, in the real history the reds managed to hold the germans enough to relocate industry to the east.....if that manufacuring base was wiped out the russkies would have been stuck with no industry and out of date equipment..........what if the top russian echelon had been wiped out too....loss of leader ship..........but he would have captured the oil fields which was what he wanted in '41..........THAT would have powered the nazi war machine


then he might have turned westward in say '41.............by which time the brit and french could have rearmed.......so maybe they could have held german expansion westward.....perhaps germany would have been happy to just hold most of central europe, along with the rest of the axis countires............and dont forget they already had a foot hold in africa with german/italian colonies......maybe expand in africa which would be rich in resources and manpower


there always was a movement in the US that disnt want involvement in the european war so perhaps they might have stayed out of it (apart from supplying material.....at a cost)............maybe they would have had their hands full dealing with japan after pearl harbour

 

[Guest]

Let's say they could take USSR, although I doubt loosing millions of men ever mattered to the Russians, I think the biggest problem would be to "keep" it.


The supply lines would be so long, the country so vast that effectively "policing" and conrtolling it would be impractical.


Theuns

 

[john i am]

A great what if and lots of opinions and views but we all know that eventually good will always triumph over evil

 

[Guest]

When you say the low countries which countries do you mean Scott ? Holland Luxembourg and Beligium are the low countries. Also had he attacked Poland and beaten this country before going for Russia


Had Hitler signed a non aggression pack before attacking or not.


What year are we talking of ? French and British army could have walked into Germany well before and a little while before Poland was attacked and probably during Poland being attacked.


So many if and buts unless you have times it is difficult to answer the question.


He was first after land for Germany to expand into which is why he went for the easy ones to the east of Germany. It was only after this and due to Britain and France having declared war that he decided to invade the Low Countries and then France. Then I suspect that as he found this all to easy he then became ambitious and thought he would have Russia as well.


Also the timings on all the above and where did winter fall. His army, Hitler's that is, were not equipped for the winter temperatures where oil for instance in the tanks and lorries froze. Where water just froze in lorries and sweat became ice. Where the German Soldiers were clothed only for a Western European Winter with out heavy clothing and socks and boots for Russian Weather.


Interesting question. I doubt that he thought of invading Russia until he had taken care of both east end west countries on either side of Germany. He must also have realised that Britain and France would declare war if Russia was attacked and then he would have had a war on two fronts. As it was he beat the West could not easily beat Britain but knew Britain would not be a major force and so turned to Russia facing only one front.


Hitler had to worry that France and British forces would not be able to walk into Germany. Totals of French and British Forces out numbered the Germans. Facing that threat on his west and the Russians on the East it could be that the outcome may have been much quicker defeat of Germany.


An equally interesting question would be if French and British had entered the no go area for the German military (treaty agreement at the end of WW11). This is in the German border areas bordering France when Hitler decide unilaterally to chuck the agreement out of the window and occupy this area militarily. Hitler would have worried about that if he had first gone for Russia.


Laurie

 

[Guest]

Another scenario. Hitler's Foreign Minster, a real slime ball, Ribentoff persuaded Stalin to sign a non aggression pack. Britain were trying to do the same but made a real muck of the whole thing.


What would Hitler had done if he had been facing a Russia and Britain and France on the other side. Betting he would have grabbed a bit of Poland and other places and Britain and France would just have looked on. Then Germany would also have had a bite.


Such intrigue.


Laurie

 

[takeslousyphotos]

This thread reminds me of a "dialogue" from a book I read..............


'Did you know that Hitler wanted to be an artist, but since he couldn't get into art school, he turned into a Nazi?'


'Yes, I remember that.'


'Just imagine if he got into art school, the whole world would be different.'.............

 

[grumpa]

This thread reminds me of a "dialogue" from a book I read..............
'Did you know that Hitler wanted to be an artist, but since he couldn't get into art school, he turned into a Nazi?'


'Yes, I remember that.'


'Just imagine if he got into art school, the whole world would be different.'.............

Now there's a point no one else thought of, if he had become an artist the whole nasty business of WW2 may never have come off, then where would us " tankers" be? Building crappy little Renaults? Seems to me Hitler was not the only egomaniacal thug to achieve power, lets not forget Tojo and his band of merry men. Another self described "super race" that was oppressing China and south east Asia. But fear not, mankind will always find a way to kill, torture and maim his fellow man, it's only a matter of time, place and scale. Another corker about to begin with Obama and his Middle Eastern buds! Stay Tuned!

 

[Guest]

Actually Hitler was an artist and having seen some of his work I suspect it is better than most of us here.


In Vienna before he became "famous" !!! he painted and drew and sold his pictures commercially to the inhabitants of Vienna. He also had very strangely, after what he persued in policies later, was friendly with Jews at that time.


It was almost as if he lived two lives. For instance as fuhrer living in his country retreat his phone would not work. He trekked down the hill a mile or two to use an unknown to him neighbour's phone. Next day he trekked down the hill again and paid his neighbour for the use of his phone.


Laurie

 

[Guest]

.but he would have captured the oil fields which was what he wanted in '41

Actually Paul he did capture the oil fields in the Crimea and in Romania. Squadrons of Wellington's were stationed in the northish east in the uplands of Italy. They mounted raids on any oil fields that Hitler had control of.


Amazing story of these Wellington Squadrons. The aircraft they had were clapped out and there was a time when some crew refused to fly the aircraft as being unsafe. They had a hard time living in bell tens high up miles fro any where. No washing facilities until they managed to rig one shower unit. All water had to be lorried up from the lowlands. Food was dior. The crews actually took it in turns to cook what food there was. They had some bazaar ways of catching wildlife to supplement meagre supplies. The maintenance for the Wellingtons was carried out from one RAF truck.


They lost a good number of aircraft and crews. The aircraft were in poor condition. They were travelling at the extent of their capabilities. Whn they got to the target being oil etc the target was surrounded by flak guns and searchlights.


Such is the nasty part of war.


Laurie

 

[aaron]

I believe he could of, bailing Mussolini out gave time for winter and the t34.Imagine if all of the whermacht was focused on Russia from the beginning. Also splitting forces to go for the Caucasus oil field. I know this is bad but I often wonder if Hitler won would that have been the war to end all wars due to the amount of wars we've had since.