discussion Do i really need an airbrush?

[Guest]

Well this is something that i have thought about but never did anything about.

I do like the idea of one but i can't decide probably because when i was in the army any vehicle that i saw was painted by hand and not spray painted, most of my models that i will be building will be of millitary style.

My personal opinion is that brush is best for this as you would never see two army motors in the same camoflage design or not exact replicas unless factory robots did them. Ok I know i am probably opening a can of worms here and because i do not know anything about spray painting i will have to take it on the chin but be gentle as it's like glass.

I just think that the rougher the finish the more real it will feel.

I however and will never say that any models that are sprayed look anything but fantastic because they are.

What do you think? And please i mean no offence to anybody who looks at this thread.

 

[spanner570]

Here are my thoughts on this and like Allan I mean no offence...

I am in his camp on this and my reasons are these. An armoured vehicle is covered with blemishes, be they from manufacture, wear and tear, whatever and it is my view A/Bs produce a far too uniform coverage of paint, whereas a brush gives a slight hit and miss effect which looks far better on the rough metal. Yes, they can be weathered but A/B work requires far more faffing about to get the model looking used. However, I can't comment on aircraft finish as I 'aint done one for 30yrs!

Also, I couldn't do with the trouble some people have with a/bs going wrong, getting clogged ect.

I don't like the idea of fumes anywhere or the need to wear a mask, spray in a booth and the age it takes to mask a model for what is probably a couple minutes work. Whereas with a brush........

Please understand A/Bs do produce some wonderful results, but they are just not for me.

That is my case for the brush defence!!!!

This is going to be one hell of a thread Allan, and I suspect you and I are in for a bit of a tanking! No pun intended.

Ron

 

[Gern]

I think both Scottie and Ron have valid points to make. Using an A/B can be a lot of fuss and bother for relatively little return. It takes me nearly 30 minutes to set up my A/B 'cos I have to use it outside (although I'm working on that). If I've only got a couple of bits to do, it's far easier to brush by hand. I do find it hard though to hide brush marks and I'll bet I'm not alone. It's OK to say real armour will have brush marks etc, but scale brush marks are way out.

It's gotta come down to a personal opinion. There are pros and cons to both sides, but I have to say there's NO way I'd have dreamt of trying to hand paint my 1/35 Dora. It's waaaaaayyyyyyy too big. Not only would I have found it impossible to hide the brush marks, I'd have also had to use twice as much paint. As it happened I had to refill my paint reservoir a couple of times and that produced a little patchiness on the model which looks just right to my eyes! Just the sort of thing you might see on the real one when the guys opened a new tin of paint. I'll try and get a picture to show what I mean.

For aircraft, I wouldn't even think of handpainting them. Especially the big 1/32 ones I work on (I was going to say build but I haven't actually finished any yet!). The smooth finish you get on large surfaces with an A/B would be impossible for me to match with a paintbrush.

Gern

 

[spanner570]

Just had another thought in the defence of brushes which was prompted by Gern's post...

On the subject of paint wastage. it seems to me, because of masks, booths, outside painting, a large proportion of A/B paint is lost in the atmostphere.

C'mon, A/B'ers beat that argument!

Allan, I need backup, I'm surrounded!!

Ron

 

[Guest]

You guys have come up with some interesting points. I would certainly agree that the downsides of the airbrush are having to set it up (unless it's permanently stationed somewhere) and having to clean it afterwards. And yes, especially if there's a blockage or the compressor is playing up, or the pin isn't lubed enough you'd get a sudden splatter on the model when increasing the intensity of the paint. On the upside, an airbrush can produce some amazing results which would be hard to get spot-on with a brush like decent mottling. With practice even small details can be airbrushed but even for me, i'd rather paint the tools on a tank by hand than have to mask the area and mix a miniscule amount of paint for a shovel for example.

It really depends what finish you're going for. Many modellers on here prefer the rustic used look for which a paint brush would be suitable. Some modellers like the contrast of colours on a model which you might find for example on Tamiya's website for marketing and advertising purposes. In this case an airbrush would be a good choice. I did my Universal Carrier by brush for a worn sloppy kind of look, but my Spit which i wanted looking relatively pristine to be on display, i used the airbrush. Like Gern said, on an aircraft the finish is even and a brush, depending on skill of course, could no way match up to an airbrush - at least for me

Paul

 

[Guest]

I think you both made good points , I`ve only used my AB once and agree with Gern about its a pain to setup if room is limited the next time will be for my spitfire , Ron has made a good point about armour - with camo and weathering its hard to tell if its been brushed or done with an AB anyway , you`ve only got to have a look at some of Rons 1st clas dio armour scottie,

Richy

 

[PJP]

Brush/airbrush?

It has to be a matter of taste. I'm working on 1/16th & a 1/35th King Tiger models, with a 1/35th Sherman sitting in the box giving me nasty looks for not starting that as well.

The 1/16th needs an airbrush for speed but I am not sure about the smaller kits yet.

I agree with the scale brushmarks argument but I have no idea how to complete a reasonably used version of either scale without using a brush so brushes will always need a place when I am permitted to model (aah, the joys of "retirement" are presently escaping me).

Try painting a 1/16th model with Tamiya thimble sized acrylics if you want to argue economy of use. At least I seem to get good and quick coverage with an airbrush at this stage.

In summary, you pays your money...

Both arguments are right!!

All this and I'm a returner to modelling from the pre-airbrush era and an airbrush virgin (well almost, now) anyway!

 

[Guest]

I'll support you Ron... to an extent Yes, paint can be lost in the atmosphere during the spraying process but compared to when i did a bit of brush modelling, i use far less paint in my airbrush

Again, it solely depends on taste and desired effect. One thing that has always amazed me is seeing Japanese Modellers on Youtube - they airbrush everything but still get a rustic effect which i couldn't even hope of doing at my level

 

[Guest]

Hey I'm loving this debate keep it going, The other thing i should mention is i can handel the smell of paints but if i am close to anyone spraying paint be it models or for car repairs i end up breathless and need to use my inhaler. What i teend to do to avoid brush marks is thin my paint so that i need to use roughly 4 coats to get my desired coverage and looks, I must stop looking in the mirror...lol..

We will fight them in the air,

We will fight them on the sea

And we will fight them on the beaches

C'mon The Brushes

Brushes Rule

Brushes Rule

Brushes Rule and so on just like the football chant

 

[spanner570]

Quite right PJP when you talk about coverage from an acrylics+A/B users point of view, but I only use well thinned enamels with brushes and I would think covering the same model would be a pretty close run thing as to the quantity of paint used.

Who would run out of paint first? Probably me 'cos I would be able to carry on where the A/B user would have to wait for the paint mist to clear so he could see the model again!!!

Point for the brush hands me thinks!LOL

 

[Centurion3RTR]

Try painting a 1/16th model with Tamiya thimble sized acrylics if you want to argue economy of use.

I did, 1:16 scale Tiger 1 (never again though).

 

[Guest]

Ooooo, huge can of worms but easily settled in a short sentence. There is no best. Simple as that. It depends on your personal ability, taste, budget, interest. I have to say that if I could get the finish that Ron does with brushes, I may not have rushed into the airbrush side of things. But I can't so I did.

Let us first dispel a few myths. Although I agree (and know) that airbrushes can get clogged up, it shouldn't be that often if you keep your paints in good condition and your equipment clean (wise words Scoutmaster) However, for me anyway, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Another myth is that it takes too long to set up and take down. Well yes it does take time but that depends on circumstances. I have to unpack mine and pack it away again after the session as I have yet to start work on my shed. Again, for me, the advantages outweigh this problem.

The air is full of fumes and paint mist. Err, what are you spraying with, it is an airbrush not a spray gun. I spray only acrylics and I have a fussy She Who Must Be Obeyed keeping an eye on what I do. At the moment, pending shed, I spray in the corner of the kitchen with newspapers covering things up. Just above me is an electric extractor which I sometimes remember to switch on. It is rare that the newspaper behind where I am pointing the airbrush has paint on it. I am not going to pay for paint that whooshes about the place in a thick fog. SWMBO has stated that, although she is aware of it, the smell of paint fumes is not a problem and that within minutes she cannot tell I have been spraying. It would not be the same if I were spraying enamels though. Also some specialist paints like Alclad have strong fumes I understand.

It isn't worth it for small items or one offs. Well, I think it is. Last night, I whipped my AB out at 10:00. I set it all up, including newspaper and a roll of kitchen towel to hand. I covered the spitfire in a couple of thin coats of Klear. I then cleaned out the airbrush (stripping between colours etc is not required if you do it right). Then I got a sprue for the kit that had the tyres, the propeller blades, the spinner and a backing plate. I loaded some yellow into the AB and sprayed the prop. I then changed colour, tipping any paint remaining back into the jar, to white and sprayed the spinner backing plate. I then masked off the tips of the prop blades and sprayed the prop black as well as the tyres. I cleaned and switched colours again and sprayed the spinner red. Then i cleaned it all up, packed away my AB and compressor and put my paints away. I put the barley stained newspaper in the recycling bin and sat down to take last nights pictures of the Spitfire. It was 10:50 when I sat down. Could I have done it quicker with brushes? Probably but I, as in me personally, would not have got the finish I wanted.

I don't wear a mask when I am spraying and it is only on odd occasions when the spray reflects back a bit, from a concave shape usually, that I actually get a taste of it. So maybe I should. I don't have any underlaying medical problems so I don't suffer from the odd kickback. Others might and I would recommend wearing a mask and I will probably get a decent one at some point.

It is very much horses for courses, as the old saying goes. To me, airbrushing is part of my hobby. It is the tool I can get the best look that I am after from. If I had the skills to use hairy sticks like Ron et al maybe I would be singing a different tune.

 

[Guest]

This is FUN keep it going......lol

 

[spanner570]

You are quite right Graham there is no best. Each method has it's pros and cons. and as you so rightly say it's what you are happy with and what gets the individual the best results that matter.

You could probably have just as good a debate on which glue is favoured by members, but it is nice to read which painting methods folks prefer and why and we can all learn from that too.

Anyway, if there is very little harmful paint residue in the air how come A/Bers need booths and fans ect.?

Nearly started to sit on the fence then!........as if..

 

[yak face]

hello everyone from me up here on the fence, i agree wholeheartedly with grahams post , ( in the words of sheryl crowe)- "if it makes you happy ,it cant be that bad " Ive used both methods and can see the plus points of both - brush painting lends itself more to armour and a/b more to aircraft and ships. I used a brush for my halftrack ,brushing (horror of horrors!!!) tamiya acrylics! but it turned out ok, however i wouldusually airbrush any plane of 1/72 or larger although i have brushed a few ,notably biplanes due to the hassles of masking or anything in1/144 . So my vote goes to.... errr ... both , must go now to get this splinter out of my bum from the fence , cheers tony

 

[Guest]

Just my opinion-for 'scale' modelling, an AB is essential. Brushmarks are an ever-present hazard without one & I doubt anyone can leave 1/35 scale brushmarks. I think Graham covered most of the issues about actual use of an AB, it's not as difficult as what some think, just like anything else-the more you do it, the easier it becomes.

With regard to real-life armour, does anyone really think they were painted by hand on the production line? Of course they weren't, it was done by spraying. I do accept that sometimes this wasn't the case but most of the time it was. Even camo patterns in the field were usually done this way & the reason for that brings me to another point raised previously.

How much paint is used with an AB? A tiny amount because you're laying down a coat measured in microns. You only have to look at modern production techniques to know that spraying is the most economical way to apply paint.

Personally, I think it's a 'get-out' clause to suggest that armour modelling means less care need be taken with the finish or that an AB is not as necessary because it's a tank or similar. I think that because AFV's go through a far more varied amount of conditions than an aircraft, the skill needed to accurately reproduce that effect is no less demanding than it is than to depict an aircraft sitting on a runway or hardstand. That's not knocking aircraft modellers however, as I intend to build a few myself.

No-one can do without a brush or two but to anyone who's not tried an AB-well, you're missing out! Having only used one for a few months, I can see the possibilities they offer than just brushing simply can't match. Can you pre/post shade, mottle, fade or colour modulate with just a brush?

All you AB virgins out there, give it a try! With the cheap prices of some on ebay or similar, what have you got to lose? A few quid coz you can start off with propellant cans instead of a compressor.

There, now I'm off my soapbox and taking a valium!

Patrick

 

[Guest]

Hi All

This IS a good thread, why didn't I think of it??!

Well, I can say that not only can you sit on the fence, there is actually a Way Of The Fence! Yes, there is a compromise between the two extremes of brushes and Airbrushes, and that is Spray direct from the Can!

I used to use an airbrush, and the results were usually great, if done with patience etc, but it really is a hassle doing all the setting up and cleaning. But it was worth it. What made me stop was that I used compressed air out of a (expensive) can, not from a compressor, so there was always an issue with dodgy airflow affecting the finish and generally turning the air blue. There were other problems, but they seemed to get resolved eventually, but I think a compressor was/is needed. So, I put the A/B away until the day I can invest in a good compressor.

What I then discovered is you can get most common colours in a spray can. Yes it's expensive, wasteful, you cannot control the flow much, it stinks (especially the Tamiya sprays)you are limited to the colours available in a can, but it's a lot less hassle than an Airbrush, so much quicker and you do get the lovely smooth even finish on your Plane

So i use brushes (like the Hellcat I posted pics of yesterday, entirely brushed), and Spray cans when appropriate, like I plan to on the An-22, which is simply too large for anything else, unless I use a decorators brush and some gloss white emulsion!)

THIS is the Way Of The Fence, folks! But i do plan at some point to get a compressor and use an Airbrush again in the not too distant future

btw If i was doing armour, I would definitely use a brush!!!!

So I'm on the fence, but if I was to fall off, I think it would be on the brush side!

Cheers all, Saul

 

[Guest]

Ron said "

Anyway, if there is very little harmful paint residue in the air how come A/Bers need booths and fans ect.?

"There are some paints that do give of noxious fumes. ALL paints give of harmful fumes and yes, that is made worse re health and safety by making the paint airborne. I am not making light of H&S, it is a sadly all too often overlooked issue and we should always 'Risk Assess' our working. I am happy that any excess fumes are removed by the extractor which is a normal kitchen job. When I get my shed set up, it will be a very small but workable space, it is in fact the end of a two part shed. Because it is such a small space, I will spray with the door ope or I will fit an extractor of some sort. Possibly a cooker hood fitted vertically to the wall at the back of my workbench with the exhaust going strait outside.

There is no way on earth with my current set up that I would spray enamels, it simply would be too dangerous. So, you have me there Ron. Just be careful not to poke yourself in the eye with that brush you sometimes rinse out in your tea cup :laughing:

 

[Guest]

I guess that my opinion is this for small items like tools for armour or engine parts chipping etc i will brush paint you can't beat it however as for larger areas i will use the airbrush simply because my brush painting technique is not good enough, now as for airbrushes clogging ... well it's a simple fact of life but i use my own tried and tested mixes so clogging doesn't happen and you do tend to use less paint as a little goes a long way,as for set up all i do is add 2ml of paint and thinner to syringe conect my airbrush to the hose and iam off no more than 3mins, i have to say having learned how to use one and iam by no means a master i find it easier and quicker for painting. I will however still use brushes when they are needed.

scott

 

[Guest]

PS you don't get hairs in the paint with a non hairy stick, also when i spray i leave the window next to me open so no fumes what ared people spraying in there homes there cars!

scott