discussion Lancaster programme tonight

[stona]

Just turned on the goggle box and noticed a programme on BBC 2 tonight at 19.00 about the Lancaster.

That's in twenty minutes!

It's John Sergeant again. I didn't think much of his Spitfire programme but anything with Lancasters in it can't be bad.

Steve

 

[Guest]

All the good stuff is on when I'm away!

I agree with the Spitfire program however I could watch Spitfires in the air all night irrespective of what else is padding it out!

 

[papa 695]

Just missed it will have to watch it on I-player But thanks for the heads up Steve

 

[john i am]

Only 1 British flying lanc left such a shame but a great programme thanks for the heads up cheers John View attachment 86201

View attachment 199224

 

[Dave W]

It was on a couple of weeks ago.Nice to see John Sargents genuine enthusiasm for the Lancaster.

 

[stona]

I know that these programmes are fairly lightweight (in historical terms) and have to have a bit of a human interest story. I have no problem with any of that. The only thing that really bugged me was the section covering the operation against Peenemunde in August 1943.

The Peenemunde raid had nothing to do with the V-1 flying bombs. I can't put it any more simply than that. Eisenhower's comment that the invasion might have been 'written off' had the Germans bombarded the Portsmouth/Southampton area six months earlier , which he made in his post war book 'Crusade in Europe', referred to V-1s not V-2s and was quoted out of context in the programme. Really bad history!

There were other rather dodgy bits, but I'll let them pass

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Will have a gaze and thanks Steve.

The Peenemunde raid had nothing to do with the V-1 flying bombs. I can't put it any more simply than that. Eisenhower's comment that the invasion might have been 'written off' had the Germans bombarded the Portsmouth/Southampton area six months earlier , which he made in his post war book 'Crusade in Europe', referred to V-1s not V-2s and was quoted out of context in the programme. Really bad history!



Cheers

Steve

Apologies Steve but the para. above I am not sure if you are for against and who said what in the programme.

Only read your warning about the programme as it was finishing. Would have watched it despite my annoyance at John Sergeant. He used to be good as a correspondent but since then ???

Laurie

 

[stona]

The implication in the programme was that had the Peenemunde raid not been made then the German's might have been able to bombard the invasion ports, even preventing Overlord in 1944. Eisenhower's comment referred to V-1s and was used in the programme to support this contention. I've seen this elsewhere too and it has become one of those myths justified by repetition.

Ignoring other salient facts like the V-1 not having anything like the accuracy to obtain the concentrations necessary to do this, the Peenemunde raid had no connection with operations against the V-1. Peenemunde itself was a research establishment devoted to German rocketry. The raid on it was a raid against the V-2 and inadvertently other rocket programmes , like the anti aircraft 'wasserfall' system, which suffered a fatal blow, and the two stage A-9 rocket designed to reach as far as Glasgow.

The raid was a success, precipitating the costly and time consuming dispersal of the V-2 programme. Testing moved to Poland and famously production shifted to the huge and expensive tunnel complexes in the Harz mountains.

Sources both German and allied agree fairly well that the delay to the programme was about two months and that eventual production was also reduced. It has been estimated that the raid prevented the launch of between 700 and 800 rockets with the consequent saving of life.

For this the RAF lost forty bombers (23 Lancasters, 15 Halifaxes, 2 Stirlings) and two intruder aircraft (a Beaufighter and a Mosquito). 288 men from Bomber Command and 2 from Fighter Command were lost of whom 245 were killed. The total cost was somewhat glossed over in the programme.

This also belies the impression given that the raid was carried out by Lancasters. Nearly 200 Halifaxes flew with the Main Force and 54 Stirlings were in the first wave attacking the housing estate.

I don't want to tear the programme to bits, though I seem to be doing so. I realise that it wasn't supposed to be an attempt at heavy weight history but I do object to the perpetration, or in this case perpetuation, of myths.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

very touching when the daughter visited the wreckage in the lake where her fathers plane went down to finally say good bye to her dad

 

[Guest]

Yes an interesting subject Steve with many accounts.

My favourites is the Prof. R V Jones, who worked for the RAF, which details the V 1 testing and rocket experimentation at Peenemunde. This is where Jones stands up to Lindemann , Lord Sherwell, and Churchill's guru on science in the cabinet war meeting. He details the intelligence they have gained through photos, agents in the field, and the radio information being passed by the Germans.

After the meeting the raid on Peenemunde was organised and carried out.

Jones was all for making the main purpose of the raid to obliterate the machine shop. He contended that the design work was all but complete. That the wiping out of many scientists was to late they had finished there work. So they went for the scientists rather than the machine shop.

Unfortunately the raid did not wipe out the senior men neither did it destroy most of the plant and most importantly the machine tools. These were then transported to other sites to continue the work.

Most unfortunate is that the worst hit, by pathfinders marking incorrectly (such is war), the foreign and pressed workers premises which was all but obliterated.

So it was half successful. Only speculation can predict the outcome if it had been a greater success. Possibly the virtual end in terms of time for the V2 rocket.

On the Southampton being targeted by the V1. Hardly likely. One I doubt that the German knew what was going on in Southampton. Two the position they sited their ski take off's in France was to greater distance from Southampton. The V1 best distance being 160 miles.

If you want a great read "Most Secret War" R V Jones. How much he and his team did for Britain and the war effort is impossible to calculate. The books as written is valuable in the fun that could be had in such an important pursuit and at such a time. Very funny in parts. Plus it is written in layman terms.

Laurie

 

[Guest]

I actually went for a "Taxi" ride in "Just Jane" last time I was at home. What an unbeleivable experience not only from the technical point of view but also from the fact that I was sat there at the end of the grass with all four Merlins thundering away just as many thousands of youngsters did all those years ago never to return. A poignant moment.

If they get her airworthy, and it looks like they should, there will be two British ones airworthy. Another point of interest is the fact that the Canadian Lanc will be in the UK for the month of August doing shows alongside the BoB Memorial flight aircraft. It looks like this may never happen again though when she goes back to Canada.

Something else I didn't know until I sat in "Just Jane" was the fact that there was no co-pilot seat. If the pilot was incapacitated you had to get him out of the seat and get another man in there before you could fly the plane again.

 

[Guest]

Oh yes what an experience Richard. At a Battle of Britain Jersey Show a few years ago I was asked to film a flight. The Lanc. always lands in Jersey for the night. I was running a small film/editing unit in the island.

Who was the clown who said, sorry to busy.

Hang my head in disgust. What an idiot. Sitting in the cockpit filming a fight.

Laurie

 

[Guest]

Doh! I'm in Australia.

John

 

[Guest]

Yes an interesting subject Steve with many accounts.My favourites is the Prof. R V Jones, who worked for the RAF, which details the V 1 testing and rocket experimentation at Peenemunde. This is where Jones stands up to Lindemann , Lord Sherwell, and Churchill's guru on science in the cabinet war meeting. He details the intelligence they have gained through photos, agents in the field, and the radio information being passed by the Germans.

After the meeting the raid on Peenemunde was organised and carried out.

Jones was all for making the main purpose of the raid to obliterate the machine shop. He contended that the design work was all but complete. That the wiping out of many scientists was to late they had finished there work. So they went for the scientists rather than the machine shop.

Unfortunately the raid did not wipe out the senior men neither did it destroy most of the plant and most importantly the machine tools. These were then transported to other sites to continue the work.

Most unfortunate is that the worst hit, by pathfinders marking incorrectly (such is war), the foreign and pressed workers premises which was all but obliterated.

So it was half successful. Only speculation can predict the outcome if it had been a greater success. Possibly the virtual end in terms of time for the V2 rocket.

On the Southampton being targeted by the V1. Hardly likely. One I doubt that the German knew what was going on in Southampton. Two the position they sited their ski take off's in France was to greater distance from Southampton. The V1 best distance being 160 miles.

If you want a great read "Most Secret War" R V Jones. How much he and his team did for Britain and the war effort is impossible to calculate. The books as written is valuable in the fun that could be had in such an important pursuit and at such a time. Very funny in parts. Plus it is written in layman terms.

Laurie

Didn't 617 squadron take the Peenumunde raid?

John

 

[Guest]

Do not know John if they were part of the force.

There were 600 approx on the raid so there were a good number of squadrons in that make up.

There were also raids to provide diversionary attention to confuse the German nightfighters.

Have to find out about 617 which was the Dambusters Squadron and if they were on that raid. Cannot remember any mention of them.

Laurie

 

[stona]

The Peenemunde bombing was carried out in three waves.

1st wave (00.15-00.30): Targeted the Housing Estate. 54 Stirlings and 12 Lancasters of 3 Group. 145 Halifaxes of 4 Group. 14 Pathfinder Backers-Up. 19 non-marking Pathfinders.

2nd wave (00.31-00.42): Targeted Production Works. 113 Lancasters of 1 Group. 9 Pathfinder Shifters. 12 Pathfinder Backers-Up.

3rd wave (00.43-00.55): Targeted Experimental Works. 117 lancasters of 5 Group. 52 Halifaxes and 9 Lancasters of 6 Group. 6 Pathfinder Shifters. 12 Pathfinder Backers-Up.

The plan was to destroy all the facilities on the site, not simply to go after the personnel. Machine tools are notoriously difficult to destroy as recorded in German reports on bombing and supported by the findings of the various post war bombing surveys. They almost require a direct hit to ensure destruction.

The bombing, for a variety of reasons, failed to achieve the concentration hoped for in all three bombing areas, but the raid was still a qualified success.

The original Operational Order states:

"The whole complex, which covers an area of some 8,000 yards by 2,000 yards, includes the experimental station, assembly plant and living quarters housing the scientific and technical experts. The destruction of this experimental station, the large factory workshops and the killing of the scientific and technical experts would retard the production of this new equipment and contribute largely to increasing the effectiveness of the bomber offensive."

The last point is a bit confusing but panders to the official cover story, that Peenemunde was developing new R.D.F. (radar) equipment.

The intent of the raid was clear:

"Intention. To attack and destroy the Experimental R.D.F. establishment at Peenemunde."

617 Squadron did not take part in this operation.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

No doubt those were the orders etc. Steve.

But it is of interest that Jones as the instigator of the raid and knew more about the happenings at Peenemunde (god I spell this incorrectly every time) wanted the raid to concentrate on the "development works and installation works". According to Jones Bomber Command also wanted to make that their main effort. Not to forget that Jones scientific intelligence group was attached to the RAF.

Jones says that Sandys the minister (pain in the neck from all that I have read) convinced Bomber Command it was even more important to concentrate the raid on the housing estate which contained the homes of the scientists and engineers.

From all that I have read I think Jones was right. Jones was not unfortunately asked for his opinion which is incredible as the man who knew the most. My opinion is they should have tried to destroy the factory completely machinery, testing equipment drawings the lot.

Who knows but it is great to speculate.

On Jones he said Sandys came out at the cabinet meeting with every rocket being capable of killing 4000. Fortunately he was wrong. But I suppose you have to gift to the man the fact that figure probably concentrated the minds.

The unsavoury details. In all the V2 caused 2754 deaths in London. 6520 casualties. About 2 people killed for every rocket. How many more with out the Peenemunde raid is beyond my info. and speculative. But if 2 months is a guide it would have been quite a few especially as it is reported that the V2 was gradually improved with the failure rate and accuracy becoming rapidly deadly as time went on

Laurie

 

[stona]

Laurie, they did try to destroy the factory, test facilities, experimental station and the rest. 113 Lancasters targeted the Production Works and 117 the Experimental Works. Given the Lancaster's heavier bomb load more bombs were targeted here than on the Housing Estate. The unfortunate fact is that they failed to achieve the concentration required to do the job.

The housing was hit hardest not by design but by chance. It was the target of the first wave and despite errors in the first marking, corrections were made by the Backers-Up and the Master Bomber ordered bombing on these accurately placed target indicators. The bombing of subsequent waves became widely dispersed. Some third wave bombs fell more than three miles from the aiming point. The most accurate late bombing was performed by some 5 Group crews who ignored the marking and the Master Bomber and made 'time and distance' runs to the target.

The personnel were an explicit target of the operation, but not THE target. At least one important scientist was killed. Dr. Thiel was the propulsion specialist working on the 'wasserfall' system and his demise undoubtedly hampered development of the system which never became operational.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Agree with all that Steve. Just to confirm that I am not trying to score points at all. Just like to explore these matters and to do that I like to have other interested parties put points as it is a great learning institution logical and informed argument. It is nice to have an interchange of ideas and one I very much appreciate.

My point and that of Prof. Jones that the focus should have been on the production works. As for the Scientists the Nazis regime soon remedied that by transferring from other projects. I suppose you could then say this had the plundering effect on those other projects. Or as Montgomery would have said the "the crumbling effect". To crumble.

Another interesting fact, one which obviously confuses some film makers, was that Jones and his crowd were monitoring the development of the V1 which was also using Peenemunde (got it right) to test these things. It just exemplifies the high intelligence of British units through out the war. the accuracy of the work built on photos, work from in the field and pure science. The figures that Jonese set down for the V2 were so accurate and despite figures from, as found later, other types he stuck to his guns and was proved so right.

Also to bring attention to the Aircraft Photo Recon. units, the Spitfires and Mosquitos, who provided incredible information for the scientists to work on. As a lot of this work was over naturally sensitive areas they were dangerous missions. Again Jones asked for these missions and the comrade between scientists and Photo pilots was first class. Jones realised that it was imperative for the pilots to know not only what but why they were carrying out this work.

I admire Jones very much as he could of disappeared during the war into some University to work on his wants but decided to stay to help in the war effort. He was in his early twenties and his demeanour, work and determination were of the highest especially for one so young. He suffered through this in his later career. His programmes on TV about his war were an inspiration .

Finally he stood up to Churchill. I just love that. Churchill also. He loathed yes men and like young men with believe. To all just read "Most Secret War". It is an incredible read with humour and excitement. Put this among my favourites. Just another "Silk and Cynide" by Leo Marks. Youch both exciting books with humour.

Laurie

 

[stona]

There was a wind tunnel at Peenemunde which was involved in some V-1 work but this was undamaged by the bombing.

The V-1 was not designed and developed at Peenemunde, though the airfield at Karlshagen (Peenemunde West) was the location for its test flying programme. The British were aware that the Me 163 was being tested here too. Compared to the Wermacht's large and sophisticated facility on the other side of the peninsula the Luftwaffe's facility was very modest. The V-1 test area, right at the northern tip of the peninsula, was unknown to the allies and consequently not targeted. It was close to the airfield and to the main rocket testing area, neither of which were targeted either. Also not targeted were the power station, the liquid oxygen plant or the large Trassenheide camp for foreign workers, though the latter would be hit despite lying a mile to the south of the nearest targeted area (housing estate/army barracks).

The raid was aimed at the rocket programme, primarily the V-2. You've read Jones' book and will know that it was his interpretation of a photograph from the 12th June sortie (flown by Flt.Lt. Lenton and Sgt. Haney) showing a V-2 on its side on Test Stand VII that precipitated the raid. The photograph had earlier been misinterpreted by an RAF intelligence officer. At this time the British were unaware that Peenemunde had even a slight connection to the V-1 programme. This understanding came much later that year.

Test Stand VII, from which V-2s had been launched since October 1942, had earlier been understood as a test site for new explosives which were supposed to be manufactured in the two large buildings which were in fact assembling V-2 rockets.

British estimates were that the raid prevented the launch of 740 V-2s. Of these 155 would have fallen in London and 155 in more or less densely populated areas of Britain. Those falling in London were estimated to potentially cause 809 fatalities. A further 370 rockets would have fallen on continental Europe, principally Antwerp causing potentially 1,930 fatalities there. This is all very cold blooded statistical analysis, but it was undertaken at the time.

Steve