discussion Natural metal finishes and varnish?

[Guest]

Really this is more of a decal-related query than painting, but anyway...


I'll be starting my first (since the days when you just painted them in Humbrol Silver) natural metal finish aircraft build soon. I'm weighing up the merits of Alclad and the new Vallejo metallics. The one question I haven't been able to answer though, is how do folks go about hiding the carrier film on the decals. Is it the usual gloss varnish over the metallic, decals, then another coat of varnish? Would the top varnish coat be gloss too? Or is that likely to result in a model that's just too shiny to look realistic - at least for a well-used WW2 aircraft in 1/72?

 

[papa 695]

Hi Doug Iv'e just finnished the Airfix 1/72 Sabre F86f using the new Vallejo metal paints and varnish, all i did was paint as normal with there primer and metal paint, then 2 coats of there metal varnish put the decals on as i would normaly do using Micro set and sol, then anothe 2 coats of the metal varnish. Then i weathered as normal, I use the clay washes so if you don't want it too shiny don't wipe off all the wash, then add the usual oil/fuel spills and gun/exhaust smoke.

 

[BarryW]

Doug - I have just been testing the new AK Extreme Metal paints and have found them first class and viceless to use.


You do need to use a primer with all metallisers then resolve any issues, re-priming before spraying, as metallisers really show up any flaws in a build.


I would also use a black primer for a NMF, ideally with a bit of a sheen to it. In my testing the Stynylrez primer was excellent.


The AK paints sprayed well at a very low air pressure and you need to build up the colour gradually. I found the following:


1/ Masking up was no issue at all with Tammy tape


2/ Decal film did not show and was as good on bare metal as it was on a test piece that I gloss varnished.


3/ Decal solutions had no effect on the metalliser


4/ Enamel based panel line washes went down and cleaned up with no damage to the metalliser


I would suggest though, whatever metalliser you use is to wipe the model thoroughly with i.p.a. before laying down your primer. I would also leave 24 hours between key and potentially aggressive treatments to make sure it all cured properly.


I have to say thet the AKI Extreme Metal will be my metalliser of choice from now on but... I will not use their Polished Aluminium and Chrome as the formula of these is a bit different to the rest and did not work as well on a number of fronts. The other aluminiums are great, aluminum, matt aluminium, white aluminium, dark aluminium, duraluminium between them give enough marginally different shades to get the 'panel' patchwork effect on an NMF.

 

[stona]

I do apply a clear varnish over natural metal finishes. I use old Klear but Alclad and others provide their own if you are worried. In my opinion the varnish does alter the finish very slightly, but you really need to have an unvarnished part side by side for comparison to see the difference. The advantages of the varnish far outweigh the almost imperceptible change, again, in my opinion.


This is Alclad's 'highly polished aluminium' on the awful old Monogram DC3 with a coat (or two) of clear varnish over it:


View attachment 238326



It's still shiny enough for me! Here's the finished model after a bit more weathering etc:


View attachment 238327



Cheers


Steve

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies, all. As a first try at the dark art of NMF, I think I'll go with the Vallejo option - I loved the Sabre, Ian, but was just a bit bothered that for my subject (Airfix Mustang), the finish might be a bit shiny. I use the Flory washes already, so if I think it's too shiny I'll cut it back a bit with those, and maybe with something like Tamiya Smoke. Am I right in thinking the Mustang wing was actually painted glossy silver anyway? I'll experiment a bit on the old plastic drinks bottle while I'm putting the kit together. Maybe later on I'll have a go with Alclad on something else - it certainly looks great on the DC3, Steve

 

[Guest]

Does this product have Cellulose Thinners as its solvent? I had a bad time last year airbrushing Alcal Chrome.


Has anyone found the thinners blocks the nozzle?

 

[yak face]

Thanks for the replies, all. As a first try at the dark art of NMF, I think I'll go with the Vallejo option - I loved the Sabre, Ian, but was just a bit bothered that for my subject (Airfix Mustang), the finish might be a bit shiny. I use the Flory washes already, so if I think it's too shiny I'll cut it back a bit with those, and maybe with something like Tamiya Smoke. Am I right in thinking the Mustang wing was actually painted glossy silver anyway? I'll experiment a bit on the old plastic drinks bottle while I'm putting the kit together. Maybe later on I'll have a go with Alclad on something else - it certainly looks great on the DC3, Steve

Hi doug , the mustangs laminar flow wing was painted . in order to get the best aerodynamic performance from the wing it had to be as smooth as possible so all seams were filled with putty and the wing was painted silver. The fuselage and elevators fin etc were all left in natural metal . This of course was during wartime service , some warbirds or museum pieces may be seen with stripped polished wings but if its an in service aircraft then they would be painted, cheers tony

 

[stona]

Hi Doug, Tony is essentially correct, but which parts were and weren't painted and/or filled is quite complicated. I have a diagram somewhere which I can search for if it would help.


Cheers


Steve

 

[yak face]

Found one Steve , basically its any coloured area was painted the rest nat metal , so the wing apart from the flaps ,ailerons.UC doors and a section of the centre underside was painted, also the rudder and elevators were too as these were canvas covered (i only just found that out!!) cheers tony http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/schematics/184914d1322585947t-51d-filled-wing-panels-help-please-p51szpachla-jpg

 

[Guest]

Thanks guys - this is really helpful!

 

[Guest]

Does this product have Cellulose Thinners as its solvent? I had a bad time last year airbrushing Alcal Chrome.
Has anyone found the thinners blocks the nozzle?

Alclad is a lacquer, and will need some kind of cellulose thinners to clean out the airbrush afterwards. I believe the AK Extreme products are enamels(?). Vallejo Metal Color is water based, and is compatible with their own thinners and cleaners (or IPA). It seems more 'user-friendly', hence I'm quite keen to give it a try!

 

[stona]

Tony, Doug, I would go with this one:


View attachment 238455



There are definitely some problems with the other one.


Cheers


Steve

 

[Robert1968]

Hi Doug Iv'e just finnished the Airfix 1/72 Sabre F86f using the new Vallejo metal paints and varnish, all i did was paint as normal with there primer and metal paint, then 2 coats of there metal varnish put the decals on as i would normaly do using Micro set and sol, then anothe 2 coats of the metal varnish. Then i weathered as normal, I use the clay washes so if you don't want it too shiny don't wipe off all the wash, then add the usual oil/fuel spills and gun/exhaust smoke.

Just found this as I was looking for NMF for my Mig and think I'm going to go down this path ( bit of thinking bout this but Ian's come to the rescue so I'll just get onto John at SMS


Can I say at this point that this site has answers everywhere .......... Brilliant!!!

 

[Robert1968]

Hi Ian


I ordered some stuff from John, the gloss black primer ( metal coat ) metal steel and aluminium and the gloss varnish ( all metal coat)


I have 1200 grit pads so I'll give the Mig a good ol rubbing first. I'll also do the same for the J10 but that's got ghost camo going on so the primer wil be normal Val black.


I'm hoping for a smooth NMF on the Mig and il try and dull down a bit on panneling And rivot detail


Hope it pans out


Regards


Robert

 

[Guest]

Hi Ian
I ordered some stuff from John, the gloss black primer ( metal coat ) metal steel and aluminium and the gloss varnish ( all metal coat)


I have 1200 grit pads so I'll give the Mig a good ol rubbing first. I'll also do the same for the J10 but that's got ghost camo going on so the primer wil be normal Val black.


I'm hoping for a smooth NMF on the Mig and il try and dull down a bit on panneling And rivot detail


Hope it pans out


Regards


Robert

I'm certainly no expert Robert, but I'd advise using a higher grit than 1200. You'll still see minor scratches under a BMF finish.


My Micro Mesh pads go up to 12000 grit & whilst that level might be overkill, I've definitely gone as high as 8000 for a really smooth surface.

 

[stona]

Agree with the above, I give a final polish with some denim material (of unknown but extremely high grit value )


Cheers


Steve

 

[papa 695]

Hi Ian
I ordered some stuff from John, the gloss black primer ( metal coat ) metal steel and aluminium and the gloss varnish ( all metal coat)


I have 1200 grit pads so I'll give the Mig a good ol rubbing first. I'll also do the same for the J10 but that's got ghost camo going on so the primer wil be normal Val black.


I'm hoping for a smooth NMF on the Mig and il try and dull down a bit on panneling And rivot detail


Hope it pans out


Regards


Robert

Hi Robert I would go with the others and get some finer sanding paper but the primer and paint are what you need good luck with it and I would do a little practice piece first just to see how it works with it being a very thin paint you will use a lot or flood the area very quickly if your not careful.

 

[Robert1968]

Hi Robert I would go with the others and get some finer sanding paper but the primer and paint are what you need good luck with it and I would do a little practice piece first just to see how it works with it being a very thin paint you will use a lot or flood the area very quickly if your not careful.

Hi Ian


I'm thinking of passing lightly over when I spray and from a distance ( got the wife on the saving the plastic milk bottles)


What a better grade than 1200 ( as I thought that was polishing grit


Your advice like any other is invaluable


Regards


Robert

 

[papa 695]

I do use up to 1200 just like the ones you've got but give them a sanding/ polish with 2000 then 10000 polishing sponge