discussion Seafire.....a feelgood story.

[stona]

This video is self explanatory.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/TneYPcyGbbY%26autoplay=1%26rel=0

Not sure about the "four engine bombers" over London though

Cheers

Steve

 

[Ian M]

That put s smile on my face.

thanks for that Steve.

Ian M

 

[Guest]

Wow I wonder if he ever goes to bed.

Very nicely filmed & edited video as well.

Laurie

 

[eddiesolo]

Not sure about the "four engine bombers" over London though

Yeah, maybe he was confusing the incoming Germans two engine types with outgoing UK and American four engine types, maybe it was lost in editing.

Great film though and although it is another UK plane in the hands of a American, why do we not seem to be able to hold on to out own heritage?, it is nice to see that it has been brought back to flying stature.

Si

 

[Guest]

Thanks for that Steve.

 

[ojays]

Really enjoyed that and it stirred a memory.

Many years ago in my ill gotten youth, I was courting a young lady whose father served aboard an aircraft carrier possibly HMS Triumph or Ocean (unsure now) during the Korean War. She showed me a photo album of her fathers which she kindly loaned me.

The two of the crash site I was told was a Lancastrian on Gibraltar

As this was before the days of all singing all dancing photo scanners/computers, I used the photo copy machine at work to try to copy them.

Here are the (poor quality) copies of those photo's I still have.

Funny how one persons thread can conjure up forgotten memories!

Thanks Steve.

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[ojays]

As I had reached the post capacity for the photo's I couldn't post the final one, the man himself Mr Derek Hatfield.

Unfortunately my relationship with his daughter never progressed, however I would love to borrow those pics again to copy properly, and any others he may have after that period!

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Gregg

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[stona]

Nice pictures anyway.

I spent the first two years of my life on Malta and was lucky enough to have a couple of days recently, along with a free car and charming and helpful driver, to make my own "grand tour" (for the price of a couple of lunches and a "drink" for the driver ).

 

[Guest]

Yes very interesting Gregg.

Just reading "To War In A String Bag" by Commander Charles Lamb who at that time in the Fleet Air Arm. He took part in the Taranto raids in the degrading of the Italian Navy who then decided that all ships would be safer in port (shades of the Argentinian Navy in the Falklands incident). Belonging to the HMS Illustrious (not the present yes you guessed) on one raid in the Malta area he got back to ship to find her bombed and all but finished (she made her way back to Malta). Hey what do you do when you get home to find no home. He became a cuckoo & landed on another carrier.

Crazy story on this raid. He had a navigator but in the air this voice he did not recognized piped up. An observer, a sprog (bet he grew up quick) in another squadron on Illustrious had chosen the wrong Swordfish. So there they were then attacked by the enemy who managed to puncture the secondary fuel tank which doused the navigator & cuckoo observer all with out mother to land on.

Lamb was reported as lost to his wife as the carrier they landed on had lost it due to so many communication problems. The squadron with the lost observer reported the loss of their crew. Such is war.

Illustrious quite a ship damaged many times and involved in so many area of WW11 from the Med down to the southern hemisphere she made the end of the war.

Laurie

 

[stona]

The first Luftwaffe attack on Illustrious was a demonstration to the British of the professionalism, determination and skill of the Germans. It was something unlike anything they had encountered at the hands of the Italians.

It took six and a half minutes to reduce Illustrious to what one naval historian has described as "an impotent liability".

Only thirty Ju 87s attacked Illustrious whilst others mounted diversionary attacks on Warspite and Valiant. Even the man commanding Illustrious was impressed.

"Severe, brilliantly executed, and pressed home with the utmost determination" was Rear Admiral Boyd's assessment of the attempt to sink his ship

An appalled Admiral Cunningham watched the attack. He wrote that Illustrious "disappeared in a forest of bomb splashes.....there was no doubt that we were watching complete experts....we could not but admire the skill and precision of it all."

The Luftwaffe had arrived and things were going to get MUCH more difficult for the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean, the defenders of Malta and of course the people of Malta.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Actually it was the Royal Navy's poor understanding of carrier tactics which allowed the Germans to show their capability. R Admiral Boyd did very pointedly risk his future by telling Cunningham that they were at very high risk & that the Illustrious & other carriers should be on the permiter of the range of German aircraft.This was poor management by Cunningham, unusual.

Just a small correction Steve. My understanding is that an Admirals' Flag Ship is not his it is the Captain who is commander & responsible for the ship. The Admiral is a guest although perhaps an unwelcome one (ie Woodward Falklands again).

Laurie

 

[stona]

Boyd was the commanding officer of Illustrious. Cunningham was the officer commanding Force A and Force D (essentially Pridell-Wipham's cruiser squadron) when it joined them, as well as B and F, aboard his flag ship Warspite. It was a complicated operation involving many units and convoys (ME51/2, ME6) making up Operation EXCESS.

It was Rear Admiral Lyster who had protested Cunningham's habit of working Illustrious closely with the other capital ships. Cunningham claimed that her presence was like a tonic to the rest of the fleet.

One of Cunningham's Staff Commanders, Rear Admiral Power, also protested that the plans for EXCESS required all the capital ships to operate too far to the west.

Cunningham disagreed,thus the following timeline was possible.

10.06. The Mediterranean Fleet is steaming in the wake of Forces B and F surrounding the merchantmen Essex, Clan Cumming, Clan MacDonald and Empire Song. Five Fulmars are launched from Illustrious.

11.00 The Fulmars drive off a half hearted attack by Italian aircraft.

11.26 Low level approach of two Italian SM 79s causes Boyd to swing out of the line to comb potential torpedo tracks. The two Fulmars still airborne drive the Italians off towards Sicily.

12.28. Boyd considers launching his re-armed and re-fuelled Fulmars. He is forbidden from turning into the wind on his own initiative and there is a standing order for the aircraft to launch at 12.35 anyway.

12.30 Radar reports an approaching formation of enemy aircraft.

12.34 Cunningham orders Boyd to turn into the wind and launch his aircraft. The first is airborne within a minute.

12.36 A large enemy formation is sighted on the starboard quarter and Illustrious and the rest of the fleet start an anti-aircraft barrage.

12.27 The Ju 87s commanded by Kapitan Hozzel and Major Enneccerus commence their text book attack. They break into three groups and constantly alter height and relative formation, confusing the range finding of the defensive barrage. They peel off from different groups and from different directions, commencing their dives from altitudes between 7,000 and 12, 000 feet.

12.34 Illustrious has been reduced to what Richard Woodman so aptly described as an "impotent liability".

In Cunningham's defence the Fleet's previous experience of air attack had not been terribly intimidating. The Italians bombed, inaccurately, from altitude or launched torpedoes which were often avoided or simply missed.

The Luftwaffe's dive bombers were something else altogether.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

"Ah so" Steve you mislead me you mentioned Rear Admiral Boyd. My info makes Boyd Captain both in rank & of the ship The Illustrious. Boyd was promoted Rear Admiral on leaving Illustrious.

Unfortunately I latched onto the Rear Admiral bit & not the names. Lyster is correct the Rear Admiral bit mislead me should have checked names. I do not think, may be wrong, that an Admiral, as a Flag Officer, has ever been in charge of a ship if so very unusual. Interesting Admiral Royal, Captain of HMS Navy that would be strange.

Matter of interest you mention Kapitan, later Lieutenant- Colonel, Hozzel. Lamb in his book tells of him. They both met after the war & Lamb persuaded Hozzel to write the story of the attack. Lamb reproduces this in his book. Remarkable to get both sides. No losses by the Germans at sea but when they attacked the Illustrious in La Veletta Harbour the RAF downed 7 of the Germans best crew.. The leader of the second squadron, who was the only survivor of that squadron, reported to Hozzel in tears. I suppose the Stukas came up against Hurricanes or was it Spitfires in Malta cannot recall.

Last if only Illustrious had had Seafires.

Laurie

 

[stona]

You're correct though Laurie, Boyd was promoted later in 1941. He ended up a full admiral didn't he?

RAF Hurricanes and FAA Fulmars at that time Laurie. Wellingtons from Malta also bombed Axis airfields at Catania, Comiso and Augusta. Malta's own AAA defences were bolstered by HMAS Perth which remained at Malta to provide extra cover.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Amazing that the story of a Seafire can bring up so many interesting facts. Who said the internet was a sad thing. Used with caution it is magic.

Some how apart from Seafires, Wellingtons,Spitfires, Fulmars, Swordfish, Stukas, Hurricanes & a load more in Gregg's photos.

Really top notch info. I feast upon it--- between meals !

Laurie

 

[Guest]

This video is self explanatory.https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/TneYPcyGbbY&autoplay=1&rel=0

Not sure about the "four engine bombers" over London though

Cheers

Steve

The link just gives me a blank page.

 

[flyjoe180]

Try this Steve

 

[flyjoe180]

BTW interesting video, the camouflage is quite effective against the ground at 4:06 and later. Great restoration.

 

[stona]

BTW interesting video, the camouflage is quite effective against the ground at 4:06 and later. Great restoration.

I agree that they have done a good job. The restoration received some criticism on the other side of the pond (other side from me, I suppose the other end of a rather bigger pond for you ) which seems a little unjust. They've got a Seafire into the air in what looks like a pretty good approximation to a realistic scheme to me and for that they should be congratulated.

There was a tremendous palaver, gnashing of teeth, wailing, wearing of sack cloth and throwing of ashes when this beautiful job took to the air.



It was all wrong and a disgracefully inaccurate restoration.......except that the team had invested a tremendous amount of time, effort and analysis of the original surviving paint to ensure that they got it right, and could prove it.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

The link just gives me a blank page.

It did to me as well Steve, I don't think it's "mac friendly"