discussion using black on models

[meggsy]

it seems that u chaps dont seem to use straight black on your models but quite a few of you add red i was just wondering wot ratio do u mix the black and red and does this rule apply to all types of black ie semi gloss-flat and gloss and does it apply to all models wether car ship bike or plane hope u understand the question

 

[Guest]

This is a topic discussed by many but all have the same answer. Black isnt Black, White isnt White in fact any color you use should not be its original raw state. Its all to do with scale reletivity. Ratios also apply to the scale you are building in proportion to distance you are pertraying. To describe the principle in depth would take ages and may paragraphs. A rule of thumb would be to tone down the Black, White, Red, Blue and Yellow to a contrast of the main color that you are using. I say these colors because they are the most common that are used for insigia and Battle stripes.. Red and Blue are added to Black, Red and Yellow are added to White. Just how much of these you add depends on the tone of your models main color. I would suggest that you have a browse through U Tube and see what you can find. It would be better to see this than someone try to explain it. But remember this, when mixing these colors always add very little drops to your Black etc as it doesnt take much to tone it down, if you add too much you will end up having to add more Black again and before you know it you have ended up with a lot more paint than you wanted in the first place.

Someone else may have a different take on this to me, but then, i do build on the larger scale that most on here.

Good luck

Andy

 

[Guest]

Here is an example of what im trying to explain. Hope it gives you some idea of the final result.

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Cheers

andy

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[Dave W]

Hello Meggsy.Im not as accomplished a modeller as some of the members.But i too have noticed that Black looks too black on a model.For example,If you've ever seen the Lancaster or wellington in the RAF museum they don't look totally black.To me they look a kind of greyish black if that makes sense.If you want to keep it simple you could try using a different shade of black that some paint manufacturers do straight out of the tin.I use mostly enamel paints and have found Revells no.9 'Tar Black' looks better on an RAF night bomber than the usual black paints.Have a look at my Wellington below and see what you think.

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[Dave W]

Forgot to add in my post above that the props are painted in the normal matt black and the aircraft is Tar black.The difference is very noticeable i think (should have used the Tar black on the props!).

 

[meggsy]

Once again a big thanks to u all for the advice

 

[Guest]

If you're in to acrylics Tamiya Nato Black is a good substitute

 

[stona]

Andy has alluded to the "scale effect". This applies to any colour that you apply to a model. It is a difficult thing to explain but it is to do with our perception of colour. If I take a pot of,say, RAF Dark Earth which is a perfect match for the original colour and apply it alongside an equally well matched Dark Green on a 1/48 scale Spitfire they will look darker than those same colours do on the full scale aircraft. This is why we lighten colours applied to our models. The smaller the scale the lighter you need to go. You will find scientific values for the percentage of white you should add,assuming you are starting with the correct 1:1 colour. These vary from around 10% white for 1/32 scale to 30% white for 1/72. Personally I think that's over egging the pudding. I don't feel the need to beat myself up over exact shades and I adopt a far less scientific approach of sploshing a few drops of my lightening colour (usually white,yellow or red) into the pot and seeing how it looks. This means that the RLM 75 on four of my models lined up together is not exactly the same which is fine by me!

As far as black goes you are looking for a slight greyishness (is that a word?) to accommodate the scale effect. You can go for one out of the tin,Tar Black is a grey,NATO black is infact a very,very dark green,or as I do, add a bit of red to your black paint.I do it by eye but a surprisingly large amount of red can be added before it starts to look red and wrong. Maybe 20% ish.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

I usually make my 'black' by mixing a 50/50 mix of Tamiya Flat Black and Red-Brown. As a straight colour, Revell Anthracite is pretty good.

 

[Dave W]

In my humble opinion what colours you use are down to your personal preferances.At the end of the day its only a model.If you think the blackest of blacks looks good thats fine.All this scale effect business is very subjective.Two different people may see the same colour differently.Recently went shopping with the wife and picked up a pair of brown trousers.She said 'You've already got a Green pair!'.They are not green theyre brown i said.But she insisted they were green!.After 11 years of marriage i knew to let it go or she would have sulked for the next few hours.

 

[stona]

At the end of the day its only a model.If you think the blackest of blacks looks good thats fine.All this scale effect business is very subjective.

I couldn't agree more with those sentiments,it's one of the reason I've binned the science and just go by eye. Nonetheless the scale effect is a fact of our perception and most people will find black on a model a bit too black if you know what I mean. The Lancaster in the RAF museum is presumably finished in "Night" which is actually a very,very dark blue and yet you yourself (along with just about everyone else) don't perceive it that way even on the full scale machine. I painted a 1/72 Lancaster in Xtracrylix "Night",which is supposedly a good match for the chips held at the same museum,as an experiment a few years ago and frankly it looked ridiculous to me. I resorted to a re-spray with my red/black mix though of course lots of different people have lots of different solutions to the problem.

I do see learning to adjust colours in the same way as I see learning to achieve good seams or a well masked canopy. It's all part of the fun of developing one's modelling skills.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Dave W]

I used the Tar Black on a model as an experiment.I think its better than standard matt black as its to me a greyish black.In all the photos i see of RAF night bombers they look greyish black to me.Although that could be because they are old black and white photos reprinted in a book.No doubt the quality of film used at the time also affects how the colours appear.I'd never have thought of adding red to black,But then im not very artistic. Your (stona) ME262 undersides look good in this shade.

 

[stona]

Hi Dave,the red thing is something I picked up years ago. People have different solutions,your Tar Black or Andy's (andygh) Nato Black are just other ways of avoiding a black hole. I certainly don't claim to have the only answer!

I've got a series of photos somewhere (lost in my filing system,but I'll have a dig!) of a pre-delivery Lancaster after its test flight. It is resplendent in a factory fresh paint scheme,no codes just roundels,and guess what? It looks a bit grey to me :twisted:

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

Agree big time with the other lads - scale to ratio , with anything military I tend to go lighter than the colour suggested but with race cars ie- bodywork I stay with the colour recommended.

As for black with military stuff I do like vallejo german grey but do add whatever colour to normal black when needed , same goes for white I add a touch of sand or light grey but it can be whatever colour within reason , I`m in Steve`s corner on this one with a bit of this and a bit of that , there is no magic formula , if it looks good to you then thats all that counts

Richy

 

[meggsy]

a big thanks too you all for your input i guess at the end of the day its what ever floats your boat

 

[Guest]

Tut all this came two weeks late. At that time I painted my 1/72 Lancaster black black. Not even thought of toning it down.

Lack of experience but I must admit when I finished the black it did look very stark especially after putting a couple of coats of Klear on it.

Looked a lot better after a couple of final coats of matt varnish but it is still black black. That is another half a rung down the ladder again !

Laurie

 

[stona]

Found the series of piccies. Here's four good 'uns with inexpert comments from me. This is a man who has had a "new" Tamiya Lancaster in the cupboard since it was released!

First a rear quarter view,I noticed the aluminium coloured framing in the rear turret,I'm always told that that was black.

Front quarter,aluminium undercarriage struts,not black. Look at the exhaust staining after a relatively short flight.

A nice side view

Another shot from behind showing how tight the demarcation between the camouflage colours was.

This Lancaster was lost on the night of 22/23 September 1943. She was coded WS-N and served with 9 Sqn. Sadly all her crew,men from Britain,Canada and Australia were lost. The youngest of them was 21 years old,the oldest 25. She was probably a victim of a nightfighter flown by Fw. Hermann Wischnewski of 3./NJ300. He was credited with a Halifax (according to my trusty "Luftwaffe Night Fighter Claims 1939-1945")but this is probably an error.

An all too typical story.

Steve

 

[Dave W]

Interesting photos steve.I notice the guns are not matt black either.The instructions in all the british bomber kits ive built always said to paint the guns black.The tyres dont look black either.I know tyres are only black because a pigment is added to the rubber.With my limited knowledge i understand the Germans didnt add pigment to the rubber and this is why Luftwaffe aircraft tyres appear grey.Is that correct?.Ive got the Tamiya 1/48 Lanc to build as well.Im waiting untill ive improved my weathering skills before i build it.

 

[stona]

I'm not sure that the Germans constructed their tyres differently in WWII. I recently saw a tyre from a Bf110 crash site manufactured by Dunlop Germany! I've seen a few recovered tyres and can't honestly say I've noticed a difference between "theirs" and "ours". I always paint my tyres a dark grey rather than black. I used the WEM tyre colour until it dried up in the tin (my fault), now I use RLM66 with a bit of red/brown added.

Guns I do metallic black from Vallejo but I used to do them black and then use the old modellers trick of applying some ground up pencil lead with a finger to give a nice metallic look.

I understand that some WWI era tyres were left unpigmented and appeared a sort of pinky/grey colour.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Dave W]

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A total coincidence but as we were discussing Black on Bombers,the BBMF Lancaster landed at Southend Airport whilst i was at work.I took some photo's which i thought i would share with you.I found the exhaust stains of particular interest as i want to try and replicate these when i build my !/48 Tamiya Lanc. And you can see some of the rear turret mechanism isnt black as steve pointed out.

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