discussion Wash types and use

[Guest]

Hi,


I'm new to the forum, and also to the hobby, and would appreciate if anyone could help me with a couple of problems I'm having with washes.


I'm mainly interested in WWII aircrafts, so I bought a commercial wash to weather them. The problem is that it doesn't seem to work as it should -or at least as I saw on Youtube. I'm trying to make the panels and rivets noticeable once the model is finished, but the wash either comes off completely (if I allow it to dry less than 15 minutes), or it catches so well the it wouldn't come off unless I also take the paint (when it dries over 15 minutes). I'm using acrylic paints and also an acrylic coat, and the wash I purchased is: "Vallejo quick drying transparent acrylic black wash".


I just saw a guy on Youtube using this same wash, but only inside the cockpits of his models; and them make another wash with oil paints and turpentine for the external panels and rivets. So I was thinking that maybe this wash is not intended for the use I was giving it, and that maybe there are various types of washes for different uses (apart from colours and tones); in which case I would appreciate if anyone could clear this.


Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Guest]

Welcome to the forum Adam.


To answer your questions, it's important to know a little more. What surface are you applying the wash to? Is it directly onto the paint or have you applied a gloss coat?


It's much easier remove the unwanted wash from a gloss surface & that will also provide a protective layer between the wash & the paint.


Another point to consider is how you remove the unwanted wash. It's best to go across panel lines, rather than along them.


Thirdly, by applying your wash all over the model, you're making unnecessary work for yourself. A better way is to apply it as a pin wash directly to the panel lines etc using a small pointed brush. Capillary action will draw the wash along the lines or around rivets.


For acrylic washes, adding a couple of drops of washing-up liquid helps break the surface tension & allows it to flow much better.


But overall, I'd steer clear of acrylic washes. Either enamel or oil paint washes are much better & easier to use.


Turpentine or mineral spirit flows so much better than water. Try adding a single drop of either to a hard plastic surface.


The water droplet will remain in place as a bead, whereas the turpentine or mineral spirit will immediately flow across the surface.


Practice & experimentation is how you'll find out what works best for you. I'd buy some oil-based thinning agent, a tube of oil paint (Van Dyke Brown or Burnt Umber) and try it out on a test model.


But remember to put down a gloss coat first. Any acrylic product is fine (Vallejo, Humbrol etc) as long as you leave it at least 48 hours to cure. 


Hope this helps


Patrick

 

[Gwyn]

Welcome to the friendliest forum. That seems to be good advice from Patrick. 

 

[BarryW]

Patrick is giving som e very good advice there.


You can make your own washes using oil paint heavily diluted with white spirit.  I used to do that.


Alternatively I would suggest the enamel washes available from Mig or, as I use, from AK Interactive.  I particularly like the AK Interactive Air Series washes as they have specially formulated panel line washes, seperate washes for engines, undercart and so on.  In particular they have some made to replicate oil and kerosene leaks that give just the right 'sheen' therefore should be applied last after the final matt coat.


These enamel and opil based washes shoul;d be applied over acrylic gloss varnish (not enamel varnish) and you can use either an enamel or matt varnish over the top.  there are lots of videos available on line.


this link is to the AK Air Series washes so you can see what I mean....  Their acrylic paint sets are excellent as well by the way....


http://ak-interactive.com/v2/?product_cat=air-weathering


John in the Scale Model Shop stocks both Mig and AK products

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the help.


I'm using the wash after a matte coat; which is also water based. But in my case it makes no difference, because if I allow the wash to fully dry (otherwise it will come off completely) then there's no way to clear the excess without damaging the coat and the paint.


I made this test on which I used the wash over a painted and coated surface, and then tried to clean the excess in 5 minute intervals:


View attachment 257311


It's not a good picture (and please disregard the lighter part on the right edge), but you might be able to see that until the 15 minutes of drying the wash comes completely off; and from 15 minutes, even though it sticks to the lines and rivets, you need to rub so hard that even the paint begins to come off (both the paint and coat). Then from 20 minutes it's impossible to clean the excess without taking most of the paint, and so on.


I tried applying it only on the lines, but I have the same problem; plus most of the lines are not deep enough and it's impossible to go through the rivets one by one. This is the reason why I'm starting to think that maybe this type of wash is not intended for this purpose (or at least it shouldn't be used with the water based paints and coats I'm using).


I'm going to try the washes with oil paints next week, but first I wanted to know that's going on with this wash.

 

[Guest]

Any acrylic product, providing it's fully cured is impervious to water. So if you're having a reaction between the two, then the most likely answer is not allowing enough time.


In my personal view, a fundamental problem with modern model making is rushing the process. Because acrylic paints appear to dry so quickly, people think that's sufficient.


It's also worth considering the nature of a matt or gloss coat. A Matt surface is rough because there are millions of microscopic pits. Any substance applied over this will cling to these pits & settle within them. So in trying to run them off, you're affecting the base coat.


A gloss surface being so much smoother allows for much easier removal. In addition, once you begin applying decals a gloss coat will minimize or prevent silvering.


As I said before, although it takes longer to do, pin washes are simply the best way forward. I'd give that a try if I was you.

 

[Guest]

I used to use pin washes, but now I am trying this. It is always worth giving something a try mate, so try all possible avenues until you settle for a stable option


this is it-

 

[Guest]

I see, that could be the problem. I usually work on my models a few hours after painting, as they look dry, but I'm sure I left that test at least overnight.


I heard it's 2 days for acrylics to fully dry. Should that be enough?


I've just also ordered the gloss and satin coats to see how they do.

 

[Guest]

Just did a test on a model I finished months ago, and the drying period is not the problem; the wash still adhere so well that the excess only came off with the paint.


I'll try it on the other types of coats when they arrive.

 

[Guest]

I finally managed to apply washes on a model that I'm happy with.


I was about to give up, since it's really dissapointing mess up a model in the final step after so much work; and in fact I didn't even try it on 3 of the last models I built for fear of doinging it wrong again.


Anyway, after many tries, I'm convinced those commercial acrylic washes can't be used with the same techniques as the home made oil based washes for external panels and rivets -at least the particular one I bought-; never got it to work well, nomatter the type of coat or the drying time. It's probably why in every video guide I saw in YouTube these type of commecial washes are only used in a different way for interiors like cockpits.


I'm also curious on whether you guys always weather your models -since I have 3 that are not-. I suppose it's a personal choice, but would you guys ever consider a model finished without wheathering it? I mean, do you ever intend to leave them clean and looking new?

 

[Guest]

Hi and welcome Andy to the friendliest forum on the net, modeling is a personal thing, if you want your models to look like they just came out of the show room, don't use any washes, personally I think all models look more interesting with some weathering ( some will say I go to far) as far as I can gather washes always work better on gloss surfaces which you can then add a matt or semi matt coat over. I hope you solve your wash problem, pin washes always work better on gloss surfaces which you then mate coat or semi gloss coat.

 

[Gern]

Lots of useful stuff here Adam - and not only for you! It's helped me too.


One thing no-one's mentioned is something I've seen but I'm not absolutely sure of; is that you shouldn't use the same medium for your wash as you do for your paint. ie If you use acrylic paint, you should use enamel or oil washes; if you use enamel paint you should not use enamel washes. Obviously if you've put varnish on top of your paint, you should use a different medium for the wash. The guys have already said a gloss coat is best, but what you use for that will depend on your personal preference.


It makes sense to me as if you're trying to clean away excess wash, whatever you use will also go on to the paint or varnish. Whatever cleaning agent you use may affect the paint/varnish as well as the wash if they're both the same medium.


Doubtless the guys will be back if I'm misleading you.

 

[yak face]

Hi adam welcome to the forum , some top advice above . Personally i use acrylic paints and do any washes after a gloss coat  using the water based clay washes . These arent acrylic based and clean up easily , i too have had problems trying to use an acrylic wash ( thinned down acrylic paint) getting the same results as yourself- ie. not coming off without fetching the colour off too. The washes i use now are very easy , although sometimes you have to re-apply in places as they come off a bit too easily! i only got three basic colours , black , grey and rust and just mix these together if i need anything different. Ill try and get a link posted to something like mine. Cheers tony

 

[yak face]

me again! , heres a link to a product similar to what i use (typically i cant find the ones i bought on e bay anymore!) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultimate-Weathering-Wash-The-Full-Set-/172274173131?hash=item281c5744cb:g:sV0AAOSwdzVXiL7H


Theres a bewildering amount of different washes out there all with their own supposed effect ( for example theres one supposedly just for dirty glass effects!) but really a few basic colours should see you ok. These are the clay based ones that are easily cleaned up , you can buy them separately so i would just get a couple and see how you go , hope this helps cheers tony

 

[Guest]

But overall, I'd steer clear of acrylic washes. Either enamel or oil paint washes are much better & easier to use.

Amen to that! But to add to the already good advice here, I'd have a look at Flory's clay washes, these are water based and can be washed all over the 'plane, then removed as desired with a moistened cloth, the beauty of them being that if you cock it up, just keep wiping it and it can be removed completely, no bother! The Dark Grime will add instant definition to panel lines, and, if you are careful, shadows to rivets etc (very easily wiped away, so single direction wipes are the order of the day here). Obviously, being just fine clay,, you'll need to varnish over the wash, but they are so forgiving, you can have multiple attempts till your heart's content, without any risks! 

 

[Guest]

Yes, sorry, I forgot to mention that on this last model, and as recommended up here by a lot of people, I used an acrylic gloss coat, and only pin washed the lines and rivets with black and brown oil paints disolved in turpentine.


On the provious model I used the same wash, but covered the whole surface first on a matte coat. The result doesn't look as good or as realistic, as it's too messy and dirty.


Thanks for all the help.

 

[Guest]

I finally managed to apply washes on a model that I'm happy with.


I was about to give up, since it's really dissapointing mess up a model in the final step after so much work; and in fact I didn't even try it on 3 of the last models I built for fear of doinging it wrong again.


Anyway, after many tries, I'm convinced those commercial acrylic washes can't be used with the same techniques as the home made oil based washes for external panels and rivets -at least the particular one I bought-; never got it to work well, nomatter the type of coat or the drying time. It's probably why in every video guide I saw in YouTube these type of commecial washes are only used in a different way for interiors like cockpits.


I'm also curious on whether you guys always weather your models -since I have 3 that are not-. I suppose it's a personal choice, but would you guys ever consider a model finished without wheathering it? I mean, do you ever intend to leave them clean and looking new?

It depends on where the subject operated. If I built a Fw 190 operating on the Eastern front in winter, it would be heavily weathered, however, a brand new Me 262 would not have much, as it's panel lines were puttied and sanded. Same for a Ta 152, as they relatively had minimal operating time, however, it would have some engine exhaust staining, but nothing too drastic

 

[Guest]

It depends on where the subject operated. If I built a Fw 190 operating on the Eastern front in winter, it would be heavily weathered, however, a brand new Me 262 would not have much, as it's panel lines were puttied and sanded. Same for a Ta 152, as they relatively had minimal operating time, however, it would have some engine exhaust staining, but nothing too drastic

I see, so you try to replicate exactly what each particular model would look like in real life, instead of treating all of them the same. Glad you mentioned that, because I finished a 190 last month and left it completely clean, and I was about to start a 262 and [SIZE=11pt]planning to weather [/SIZE] it as much as possible; since I just learned how to do it.

 

[Guest]

I use the water-based washes by Florey models. They are clay-bases. As others have said, they need to be applied over gloss varnish because matt holds washes closely and you can't wipe them fully during the finishing process. Following Florey's instructions, I fully wet a brush with the required colour and apply the wash generously, all over. Slurp it on. Then, after it has dried (probably 10 the 15 minutes), dampen a cloth by licking it and rub over the model. This will remove some of the wash, depending on how much you rub, but if you rub at right angles over panel lines they will retain the wash to make them more prominent. During the rubbing process, always parallel to the direction of airflow, you can vary the degree of rubbing in areas which need varying amounts of wash. If you don't like the result, just wash it off with a cloth soaked in water and re-do. When dry, apply oil or dirt stains (oil pigment perhaps) and varnish  (matt, semi-matt or gloss) to protect from handling.


http://www.florymodels.co.uk/washes/

 

[Guest]

One more doubt? Do you do anything special before a pin wash with oil over decals?


I just tried it on a P-51, which has many areas covered with stripped decals, and it's not getting well into the lines and rivets. I thought about using paint for those instead, but ended up going with the decals; now it's too late to go back.