discussion WW2 GERMAN FORTIFICATIONS ON TV TONIGHT

[Peter Gillson]

Hi Guys

This may be of interest - a programme about German WW2 fortifications is on TV tonight, 8.00 on Yesterday TV. See the photo of an item in today's local paper about the programme and some of it being filmed in Guernsey.

I have not seen the prog, but it may be interesting since the TV crew filmed the bunkers which I posted a thread about (https://www.scale-models.co.uk/threads/ww2-german-bunkers.31060/page-2)

Peter

 

[Peter Gillson]

Hi Guys

I watched the prog - it was ok, not one of the best documentsries, but I am not a fan of this type where the cut together bits from a number of interviews.

On the plus side it did mention the 'Germanisation' of the Island; driving on the right, the Deutsch mark became the currency, time was changed to German time, and it also did give a good idea of the scale of the fortifications, and a lot of footage of many of the fortifications, but in the main does not say where they are or what they are.

The biggest criticism I have is that through out the prog they try to create a 'darker' reason than just defensive, ending along the lines of; we will never know what Hitler really intended for the Island.

We do know what the intention was, he had hoped that after a peace in the West he woud have been able to demilitiarise France, making it self-governing under the Vichy government but the Channel Islands were going to remain German.

I think it is repeated in Sunday.

Peter

 

[Richard48]

Thanks for heads up Peter.Will watch this.
Richard.

 

[Jim R]

Hi Peter
Interesting. I have just read "When the Germans Came" by Duncan Barrett about the occupation of the Channel Islands. A most fascinating account of life under the Nazis.
Jim

 

[Guest]

time was changed to German time

The same thing happened here in the Netherlands: clocks went forward by an hour and forty minutes soon after the German occupation began (Dutch time was GMT +20 minutes until 1940), putting the country on German summer time.

it also did give a good idea of the scale of the fortifications, and a lot of footage of many of the fortifications, but in the main does not say where they are or what they are.

Typical of TV shows, IMHO.

The biggest criticism I have is that through out the prog they try to create a 'darker' reason than just defensive, ending along the lines of; we will never know what Hitler really intended for the Island.

And that too. For some reason they can’t just show the history and/or current version, it has to be sensationalised to some extent (or much more) because they probably think it’ll be too dull otherwise

 

[Peter Gillson]

Jakko - very true.

Peter

 

[Guest]

Peter I missed this unfortunately, but having read your comments on the program it appears I didn't miss much.
Agree with Jakko about the way these type of documentaries are made.
The recent series of war time factories was made with a mismatch of film and a bunch of unknown historians was a typical example.

 

[Neil Merryweather]

The recent series of war time factories was made with a mismatch of film and a bunch of unknown historians was a typical example.

I saw one of those, John, about the Russian tank factories.
I agree with you, but over the years , especially as my knowledge has increased, I have lowered my expectations considerably; realising that for most viewers a tank is a tank,(for instance) and they don't know or care whether it's the right type, mark or even nationality!
I still watch this stuff in the naive optimism that there will be something new or interesting, but I am braced for disappointment now.
There's a show on Yesterday tonight about 'secret'-i.e previously undiscovered German bunkers- I haven't bothered to record it....

 

[Guest]

a mismatch of film

Another fun game you can play: see if you pick out the film clips that were taken at different times and/or places than the one portrayed in the documentary

 

[prichrd1]

Another

Jakko,

I do this all the time when I'm watching documentaries!! It's good fun.
My two lads know when I've spotted something now - I start sniggering !! :smiling2: :smiling2:
Like Neil says - I keep watching and yes I also have this naive optimism that the producers
will actually get it right for once and be consistent with the film clips and maybe show
something new.

Paul.
:smiling2:

 

[Steve Jones]

My favourite one is the column of Panzer I's trundling down the country road during the invasion of Poland which is used in so many documentaries regardless of which theater of war or country. Once I saw it used in the Japanese invasion of Singapore documentary :tears-of-joy:

 

[Peter Gillson]

I suppose we shoud remember that most documentaries are aimed at the 'general viewer' who will have a less knowledge than many of us. A firend of mine used to work in our hospital patholagy lab and could not watch Silent Whitness! Having said that, there is no excuse for some of the obvious errors which we do see.

Peter

 

[Guest]

More importantly: they’re made by general viewers, who have a less knowledge than many of us “We need some pictures of tanks driving left to right here” so some junior researcher dives into the archives and finds a good and dramatic clip of moving tanks of sort of the right period, then mirrors it so they move in the right direction.

Most TV shows are very bad when it comes to portraying real-world methods of doing things, though, because it’s usually a lot more dramatic to do things Hollywood-style. The only two I can think of that are pretty much spot-on are ER (apparently — I’m not a doctor ) and Mr. Robot (which has real computer hackers as consultants).

 

[Guest]

It's often hilarious how slovenly documentary makers can be with their research. For example, a lot of 'action' footage was put together by the Americans during the First World War and it's often used to stand in for everything, at all periods.

When I worked at the IWM, we used to get complaints that some sequences in videos such as Desert War showed tanks etc in reverse. This was because the original makers (they were classic wartime propaganda films) felt the need for the Brits to always be advancing from the left and the enemy from the right, so as not to confuse the viewer.

Another more controversial issue involved Mallinson's classic footage of troops going over the top during the 1WW and one falling wounded. The museum's researchers found that this sequence was staged behind the lines - the trenches and saps are too shallow, and the fallen man is seen to cross his legs and look towards the camera.

 

[Neil Merryweather]

When I worked at the IWM,

OOH I forgot we are honoured and privileged to have a resident expert here on this very forum!
I thought I had heard before about the tanks going from right to left etc, but that clinches it- thanks Peter.

I have only recently come to realise how much of modern day documentaries are staged or even rehearsed for the camera, and by extension ,of course it has happened since day one of documentary making. The difficulties of acquiring quality footage under conditions of actual battle cannot be underestimated.
We know for a fact that many images during the war were staged or taken behind the lines- and many clips used to illustrate'battle action' were actually shot during training exercises. We must not forget that many of the film makers, photographers and reporters paid the ultimate price themselves. The fact that so many actual dramatic events were recorded is quite amazing, there is an image of (I think) HMS Prince of Wales exploding during the battle for Singapore which is just incredible, and is used in many films to illustrate a ship exploding,whether in the Pacific, the Atlantic or the Mediterranean, and I think we should be wary of trivialising these clips of events when many people lost their lives.
So what if it's not a Panzer III Ausf 55J from mid-December 1943? - unless the programme is about the development of the Panzer III I don't see that it really matters.
We who would know about these things are a very small minority ,and I for one have learned to keep my mouth shut at home now, because I know my wife will not be impressed with my interrupting a scene by saying something like 'that's the wrong type of aeroplane, they didn't have those until a year later!'

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of an essay, and whilst I do find 'lazy' editorial practices irritating, I have just become resigned to it and try to glean what useful information I can from them.

Rant over!
Neil

 

[boatman]

HI Neil yes SNAP I get the same treatment from my missus if I start to rant while a programs on about summit wrong I get told off as she says im tryin to listen to that but trouble is I av'nt learned my lesson but I think i'll have to take a lesson from you an keep my mouth shut but its gonna be hard :nerd::smiling:LOL
CHRIS

 

[Guest]

a lot of 'action' footage was put together by the Americans during the First World War and it's often used to stand in for everything, at all periods.

That’s one I usually spot too — it’s easily recognisable once you know the clips. IIRC it’s from an American film made just after the war, which attempted to show what the fighting was like. A good effort for the time, but it’s often thought to be footage of real combat by documentary makers today.

When I worked at the IWM, we used to get complaints that some sequences in videos such as Desert War showed tanks etc in reverse. This was because the original makers (they were classic wartime propaganda films) felt the need for the Brits to always be advancing from the left and the enemy from the right, so as not to confuse the viewer.

Maybe ten years ago, the BBC re-ran their 1960s documentary series about the First World War, and added a behind-the-scenes/looking-back type of feature. In this one of the makers of the original commented that you would see a lot of left-handed Germans, for exactly the same reason you mention about the tanks in the desert.

I have only recently come to realise how much of modern day documentaries are staged or even rehearsed for the camera

You mean all those real-life shows? A lot of that’s not necessarily staged as such, but certainly manipulated and thought out a little beforehand so it appears much more dramatic than it would if it were just filmed as it was happening.

So what if it's not a Panzer III Ausf 55J from mid-December 1943? - unless the programme is about the development of the Panzer III I don't see that it really matters.

True, but the thing is that it also happens a lot with documentaries that are about the exact subject. Say, something about Tiger tanks (because the Tiger is the only tank that matters :rolling and then happily showing Panthers or Panzer IVs while talking about Tigers.