discussion Bf109 flaps position?

[Guest]

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if there is a correct position for the wing flaps and leading edge to be in when the Bf109 is parked up.

Surely with the Germans being so efficient they would have reset the flaps after landing ready for the next sortie?

If they flaps are to be open then what colour would be visible on the inside?

Atb, Colin.

 

[AlanG]

Handbooks for the Bf109 can be found here

Bf 109 Manuals and Documents

 

[Guest]

Thanks, I'll take a browse

Atb.

 

[flyjoe180]

The Bf109 had automatic leading edge slats, these extend naturally on the ground as there is no air pressure to keep them in, until they are pushed back up manually. Automatic slats deploy automatically when the angle of attack increases (negative pressure or the 'lift envelope' moves forward towards the leading edge), energising the boundary layer or air flow over the wing surface. This serves to delay an aerodynamic stall (or loss of lift-producing airflow over an aerofoil), and to increase the effective angle of attack of the wing (by increasing lift coefficient). Another example of automatic slats is the system on the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk. I believe that it was common practice for Luftwaffe ground crew to push the slats in when the aircraft was parked. I think the colour beneath the slat was the wing surface colour. I'm sure Stona or some other Bf109 enthusiast will confirm or otherwise.

See here for some detail into the workings of the slats: The 109 Lair- The Online Source for Messerschmitt 109 information

As for the flaps, they appear to be plain flaps, but split with radiator flaps fitted, the operation which depends on the version. I believe they were manually operated via a linkage controlled by a wheel on the left side of the cockpit wall (unsure whether this was via a cable or chain). They would probably stay up on the ground, as opposed to hydraulic flaps which droop naturally over time as hydraulic pressure is lost. Pictures show the flaps drooped during maintenance however, so I guess it depends how you want to display your model. Again, someone with better knowledge will advise no doubt.

A picture of a 109 flap showing colours on this link:

http://m9.i.pbase.com/o6/72/722972/1/79470009.UWtwEoeF.DSC_3759.jpg

Hope this helps you Colin. You probably are unable, like me, to read German so those manuals in the link from Allyne help but are not easy to use.

 

[stona]

There are photos of Bf 109s parked with the flaps in various positions from fully up to fully down, likewise the radiator flaps. Go with whatever you fancy.

As for the slats on the leading edge, it was common practice to push these in on parked aircraft to prevent an debris getting into the mechanism, potentially jamming the slats in or out. On a tail dragger, like the 109, they would stay in. I have seen pictures of parked aircraft with slats out (or even one in one out) but mostly they are in.

An important detail, usually missed by modellers is that when the flaps were wound down the ailerons drooped progressively too. With flaps up the ailerons droop 1.2 degrees which is negligible on a model but with flaps fully down (42.5 degrees) the ailerons have a significant and noticeable droop of 11 degrees.

Joe, the flaps and elevator trim were operated by the two large (30cm) wheels on the port side of the cockpit. The linkages were entirely mechanical. By rotating both wheels together it was possible to lower the flaps and simultaneously adjust trim to compensate for changes caused by the lowering of the flaps. It's a feature that British test pilots at the RAE commented positively on.

Cheers

Steve

Edit: What colour was revealed by the deployment of the slats is a bit like the Spitfire wheel well colour question. The usual answer was that the primer colour RLM 02 would be revealed, which is certainly the case in some examples. However there are plenty of others where the colour in that area is simply a continuation of the upper surface camouflage colours. Unless you have a picture of your subject showing this area your guess is as good as anybody's.

As for the colour inside the slat itself, there is colour film of some early Bf 109 Es which shows this to be the under surface colour, RLM 65. You can go with that, later RLM 76, RLM 02 primer or, on a late war aircraft, just aluminium.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the info guys.

Atb, Colin.

 

[Guest]

Handbooks for the Bf109 can be found here

Bf 109 Manuals and Documents

I’ve already got them. Plus they should be free - they should be on the public domain free of charge

 

[Guest]

They are in the public domain in most countries: they were published over 70 years ago. But “public domain” is not the same as “free” — in fact, it also means that anybody can charge whatever they like for them.

 

[Ian M]

Think he found what he needed to know 10 years ago lol,

 

[adt70hk]

. Of

Think he found what he needed to know 10 years ago lol,

I had noticed that straight away.... But wondered if anyone else would!

 

[Guest]

I don’t want to get into semantic wrestling but by public domain I meant free access by the…public!

There are some greedy unscrupulous people out there that charge people for pdfs that have absolutely zero rights to do so.
When I said I have them all I meant the main Bf 109 ‘Handbuch’ but there are still a ton of manuals out there that would serve modellers very well.

Necropost or not it I feel it’s still a valid point

 

[Guest]

4 pics online showed them in wartime with the flaps down...

 

[Guest]

I don’t want to get into semantic wrestling but by public domain I meant free access by the…public!

So what you want is not “public domain”, but what’s known in the software development realm as, “free as in beer”.

There are some greedy unscrupulous people out there that charge people for pdfs that have absolutely zero rights to do so.

No, they have every right to do so, exactly because it’s in the public domain. You could take a picture of a Rembrandt painting, have it printed on a couple thousand T-shirts, and sell them for whatever you think people will pay — nobody can stop you. Manuals for Second World War aircraft are no different from this.

there are still a ton of manuals out there that would serve modellers very well.

Necropost or not it I feel it’s still a valid point

I’m not disputing that modellers will probably have great use for these, and I also agree that all this sort of stuff should be available for free to anyone who wants it. I’m just pointing out that people can sell them if they want to.

 

[Guest]

Well, here’s the rub. It is unscrupulous when they have somehow scoured the web and taken up or deleted the posts so only their scamsite is the only one available.

Is it you? Is it your site? I think it is

 

[Guest]

Well, here’s the rub. It is unscrupulous when they have somehow scoured the web and taken up or deleted the posts so only their scamsite is the only one available.

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here. Who is having posts taken down, and why?

Is it you? Is it your site? I think it is

Same here: are you asking me if something is my web site, or that I’m behind having posts taken down? You’re not making much sense at the moment, I’m afraid

 

[Guest]

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here. Who is having posts taken down, and why?


Same here: are you asking me if something is my web site, or that I’m behind having posts taken down? You’re not making much sense at the moment, I’m afraid :sad:

A little bit of irony there that flies over the heads of all but the most astute. I was making light of the fact that you were such an avid supporter of ’web sellers’

I still think that info should be free. As you rightly pointed out, it’s well over 70 years from a dead regime. You say that people have a right to sell such things as Handbücher but these sellers lock everyone out from the free sites so everyone is coerced into being a ‘captive audience’. Just my opinion but I think it’s wrong. Sorry if I caused you any offense. None intended other than a friendly jibe

 

[Guest]

No offense was caused, but I feel I have to point out you still seem to misunderstand what I’m saying. I’m not a supporter of people selling scans of old books at all, let alone an avid one. But I am saying that legally, they can do so if they want to. People seem to frequently misunderstand explaining rules that exist, as being in favour of effects caused by those rules. Those are two entirely different things, though, and you can do one without the other, do both, or do neither.

And I’m still puzzled by your claims that people selling scans can deny prospective buyers from getting the same from free sites. Unless you mean by claiming copyright, so that the site owners will take down the free downloads? But that is easy enough to get around: point out that the material is out of copyright, and if the site owners don’t see the error of their ways, just upload it somewhere else. What is the scan-seller going to do? Take you to court?

 

[Guest]

Cause and effect. I hope we can drop the heavy atmosphere now. :smiling5:

You are entirely right about the pdf seller in that they seem to have taken down the free sites or claimed copyright over them - that is what I meant by unscrupulous- not necessarily because they are selling online but the manner in which they seem to have gobbled up all the other free sites
The guy pops up every now and then on other modelling sites, pushing his sales pitch. I don’t know what you mean by upload - Im only interested in downloading info the same as most other builders.

 

[Guest]

By upload, I mean the opposite of download For you or me to be able to download a PDF from a website, somebody has to first upload it to that website. Say I put up a PDF I’ve made of a 1940s manual up on Dropbox, and somebody who sells that same manual online then goes to Dropbox and gets them to remove my PDF on a spurious copyright claim. I would be annoyed, and if my appeal to Dropbox had no effect, I would just put the same PDF up at, say, Google Drive or iCloud Drive, or Scribd, or whatever. Preferably all of them and more.

 

[spanner570]

:rolling::sleeping:......!