discussion Help needed - What was it meant to be?

[Andy the Sheep]

Gents, I need some help to understand what to do with a box, a 1:35 Tamiya M3 I received from a friend.
The kit belonged to his brother, a really fine modellist, who suddenly passed away some months ago.
His intent was to give me a kit belonging to his brother. Probably he didn't notice that his brother had something special in mind about this tank.
He's not a modeller, so he cannot clear the fog surrounding this M3.
In fact, I found sprues belonging to two Tamiya M3 kits, a modified upper hull and some parts which clearly do not belong to the Tamiya kit.
Here are the pictures of the hull and the odd parts:

My educated guess is that he was after something like that


and probably British, as there's a STEN among the odd parts but all extra parts I could find are those in the pics above; no aftermarket or resin kits or a sketch leading me to the solution.
To further enhance the difficulty, I'm not an M3 LEE/M4 SHERMAN expert.

Of course, I will be more than happy to be able to complete the project, whatever it was, once the puzzle has been solved.

Thank you in advance for any clue.

Andrea

 

[Dave Ward]

Grant Command tank?

Dave

 

[Mark1]

Sorry can't help,all I know about tanks is that it costs a fortune to fill mine up nowadays lol

 

[stillp]

Where's @Jakko when he's needed?
Pete

 

[The Smythe Meister]

Yep....
...Jakko's definitely the man you need for this

 

[Ian M]

My guess is an m3 recovery unit. I think jakko is building on right now as it happens.

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

possibly http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/Images/grantarv_2.jpg

Info at bottom of page @ http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/m3ph_2.htm

 

[Tim Marlow]

Looks a good call Gary. More shots off the same page…
http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/Images/grantarv_1.jpg
http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/Images/grantarv_3.jpg

 

[Guest]

Where's @Jakko when he's needed?

I have been summoned! (TBH, I wasn’t — for some reason, I didn’t get a notification about being @-mentioned, I just happened across this topic.)

My guess is an m3 recovery unit. I think jakko is building on right now as it happens.

No, I’m building an M32 TRV (Tank Recovery Vehicle), the one based on the M3 was the M31 TRV.

I think the posts above are on the right track, but in my opinion, the intention seems to have been to build a Grant ARV:

View attachment 460315

or perhaps an M33 prime mover:

View attachment 460314

The reason being, there is a hull floor with the transmission is from an Italeri M7 Priest (or Priest Kangaroo) kit, which kind of points to an open-topped vehicle on which the transmission would be visible. All of the M3-based recovery vehicles had a turret, except the British Grant ARV, and with a turret in place, most of the interior of the tank is obscured, especially the driver’s compartment (see this model). On the Grant ARV with the hatches open (the twin Bren mount was far from always fitted), and on the M33 in general, the hull interior would be very visible, though.

This also fits with the Sten: that would likely have been carried in a Grant ARV, and speaks against an M33.

If you want to complete the model as a Grant ARV, I could scan the relevant parts from the old Airfix book Lee & Grant by Ken Jones and Peter Chamberlain (or you could buy a second-hand copy there ), as that has a section about converting the old Airfix kit into a Grant ARV.

 

[Guest]

OK, I missed something important yesterday … I had noticed that the top of the sponson had been filed off, but wondered why, and it kind of kept bugging me. For some reason, though, I had not spotted the Sherman hatch ring at the lower left of the first photo. Those two together makes it pretty clear the idea was to build an M33 prime mover: you would not need the hatch ring for a Grant ARV, but it’s very obvious on the M33, as you can see in the photo of one above. I also noticed only just now that your friend’s brother opened up the kit’s turret ring, so that also points very firmly to an M33, because you again wouldn’t need to do that for a Grant ARV even if you open the hatches.

I do wonder if the panels with the louvres and dials and things, as well as the Sten, really were intended for use with this model, or if they just happened to end up in its box for some unknown reason.

Anyway, your main problem will be how to build that winch, because it’s very obvious through the open turret ring. Also a seat for the driver, up on top of the transmission.

However, I have this feeling that the brother started this conversion a long time ago, when the only real option was the parts you’ve got on show here: these are all a very 1980s/90s way of building something like an M33 because nothing better was available. The Tamiya M3 medium tank kits have all sorts of issues, primarily the wheels (they have six spokes instead of five) and the tracks (the end connectors don’t actually connect two links), though you can solve this easily enough by using wheels and tracks from an Italeri Sherman — or the Priest that the floor came from, if your friend can still find the rest of that kit among his brother’s stash. (If you want to be pedantic, the Sherman hatch ring is wrong too: it’s the part from the Italeri M4A1 (76 mm) kit, and the 76 mm turrets had a flatter ring than the 75 mm turrets; the M33 used the latter )

Of course, if you want to finish this model as a tribute to the friend’s brother, IMHO you should use the parts he had in mind. OTOH, if you want to do it in the spirit, namely build an M33 that he never got round to, you would be far better off buying a MiniArt M3 medium with interior and building that

 

[Andy the Sheep]

OK, I missed something important yesterday … I had noticed that the top of the sponson had been filed off, but wondered why, and it kind of kept bugging me. For some reason, though, I had not spotted the Sherman hatch ring at the lower left of the first photo. Those two together makes it pretty clear the idea was to build an M33 prime mover: you would not need the hatch ring for a Grant ARV, but it’s very obvious on the M33, as you can see in the photo of one above. I also noticed only just now that your friend’s brother opened up the kit’s turret ring, so that also points very firmly to an M33, because you again wouldn’t need to do that for a Grant ARV even if you open the hatches.

I do wonder if the panels with the louvres and dials and things, as well as the Sten, really were intended for use with this model, or if they just happened to end up in its box for some unknown reason.

Anyway, your main problem will be how to build that winch, because it’s very obvious through the open turret ring. Also a seat for the driver, up on top of the transmission.

However, I have this feeling that the brother started this conversion a long time ago, when the only real option was the parts you’ve got on show here: these are all a very 1980s/90s way of building something like an M33 because nothing better was available. The Tamiya M3 medium tank kits have all sorts of issues, primarily the wheels (they have six spokes instead of five) and the tracks (the end connectors don’t actually connect two links), though you can solve this easily enough by using wheels and tracks from an Italeri Sherman — or the Priest that the floor came from, if your friend can still find the rest of that kit among his brother’s stash. (If you want to be pedantic, the Sherman hatch ring is wrong too: it’s the part from the Italeri M4A1 (76 mm) kit, and the 76 mm turrets had a flatter ring than the 75 mm turrets; the M33 used the latter :smiling3

Of course, if you want to finish this model as a tribute to the friend’s brother, IMHO you should use the parts he had in mind. OTOH, if you want to do it in the spirit, namely build an M33 that he never got round to, you would be far better off buying a MiniArt M3 medium with interior and building that :smiling3:

Thank you, Jakko. Very useful info and very detailed too, as per your standard :thumb2:.
Now things are clearer. It was meant to be an M33.
I'll start by gathering some references about the tank and see what's on the market.
The MiniArt M3 is an option but I'd like to build it as a tribute, even if this is definitely out of my comfort zone. It's not at the top of my "to do" build list but it seems that the moment I'll have to try some serious scratch building is nearer than I expected.:fearful::hugging-face:

I already ordered the Airfix book (in good conditions) on Amazon for just 7.40€ delivered.:money-face:

Thank you to all the other members who helped in this search. You are a really precious band of glue addicts:smiling::tongue-out3:

Andrea

 

[Guest]

The Airfix book is a pretty good introduction to the M3 medium tank. Sure, it’s old (1977) but there is nothing really wrong in it, and it’s a good read. Unfortunately, for building an M33 it’s not overly useful — there isn’t even a photo of one in the book.

 

[Andy the Sheep]

Thank you Jakko.
The Airfix book has the icebreaker role with the M3 family, an almost totally new acquaintance to me. I saw them strolling with their "weird" look in the background of my tank world but never got near them .:rolling:
There's not many info on line about M33. The only thing that seems to be sure is that it's a M31 ARV modified, thus without crane, probably without all or part of the internal "workshop", with the M31 internal winch and an air compressor (position in the hull and model unknown) and electric links added for servicing the towed howitzer. I suppose that internally some of the shelves were retained for the howitzer and mover field maintenance tools and parts while some space could have been dedicated to store some "ready to use" 240 mm or 8 in. grenades with their charges and fuzes.
I'd like to find a Field Manual about the M33, but it seems very very difficult. Probably there's something in the Ford archives, but not available on line. In the next days I'll search the US Army archives... finger crossed!
I'll keep on searching for more details but if the situation is going to remain as foggy as today, there's always the "Martin-Baker solution": a bad weather tarpaulin on the large opening on the roof. :flushed::smiling4::hugging-face:

Andrea

 

[Guest]

The Airfix book has the icebreaker role with the M3 family, an almost totally new acquaintance to me. I saw them strolling with their "weird" look in the background of my tank world but never got near them .:rolling:

It’s one of those weird vehicles, I think, that’s ugly enough that they start to grow on you

There's not many info on line about M33. The only thing that seems to be sure is that it's a M31 ARV modified, thus without crane, probably without all or part of the internal "workshop", with the M31 internal winch and an air compressor (position in the hull and model unknown) and electric links added for servicing the towed howitzer.

That’s about the gist of it, yes.

I'd like to find a Field Manual about the M33, but it seems very very difficult. Probably there's something in the Ford archives, but not available on line. In the next days I'll search the US Army archives...

You mean a Technical Manual, or TM. I looked just now (quickly, not thoroughly) but couldn’t find one, or even its number. The one for the M31 TRV, which would probably be useful too, is TM 9-1739 Maintenance Manual, Vehicle, Tank Recovery, T2 (M31), but I also couldn’t find that To be honest, those photos you posted of the model in grey plastic with the resin interior kit, are probably good references for the M33. If you can’t find anything better, I suggest just trying to build what you see there.

You may want to ask on someplace like Missing-Lynx, there are people there with vast knowledge on nearly any military vehicle you care to name. The trouble can be getting them to respond, though

 

[Andy the Sheep]

Thank you Jakko. Your kind help is really appreciated.
I think it will be a slow progress project with a lot of knowledge to build up before starting to spread glue and cut plastic.
Next time I meet my friend I will ask if he found something in his late brother's stash about that project: may be I will be able to "cut a long story short" :smiling2:.

Andrea.

 

[Andy the Sheep]

Last update: I met my friend who told me his brother seldom built kits OOB or in one of the versions offered by the box; he was a first class modeller and his kits were always the result of historical and documentary research and a lot of scratch building. Unfortunately, his project about the M3 conversion got lost with him.
I'll go for the M33, but I've a lot to learn before handling cutters, glue and paints.

Andrea

 

[Guest]

To learn about the M33 prime mover, or about converting models?

The M33 is not a bad choice for conversion, though — it’s not a very complicated vehicle because most of the M31’s recovery equipment was removed. The main problem will be the winch, which I have no idea where to get easily, other than a Tamiya M26 Dragon Wagon kit … which would be a little expensive and wasteful to get for just one of its winches.

The other main things you need to make are the stowage boxes around the engine deck and the door with dummy gun barrel that goes on the front of the right sponson.

 

[Andy the Sheep]

To learn about the M33 prime mover, or about converting models? :smiling3:

Both, Jakko, both. For the moment I am still on the "assembler" side of the hobby and a total newbie in US 2WW medium tanks world.
Thank you again for your tips and directions.

Andrea

 

[Guest]

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask, I’m sure this forum will be able to answer them

 

[Andy the Sheep]

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask, I’m sure this forum will be able to answer them :smiling3:

Thank you.