discussion Is this weird or what !?

[Tim Marlow]

Very true, antoni gaudi's sagrada familia in Barcelona was started in 1882 and even with the invention of CAD and CNC technology to speed up the process still only reached its halfway point in 2010.

Having seen both, Salisbury is far the superior….sorry to any Gaudi fans out there…..some of the other buildings he designed are actually more interesting…..but it does absolutely illustrate what I’m trying to say….

 

[The Smythe Meister]

Salisbury cathedral took about 100 years to build……their timescales are not our timescales…….low tech with huge amounts of manpower and limitless time can sometimes outperform high tech kit….

...true....., however,time and manpower alone can't create some of the incredibly accurate,precise and stunningly tight fitting constructions... let alone the "drilling" of perfect holes,and "carving" of 90° recesses... I could go on

 

[Mark1]

...true....., however,time and manpower alone can't create some of the incredibly accurate,precise and stunningly tight fitting constructions... let alone the "drilling" of perfect holes,and "carving" of 90° recesses... I could go on :smiling3:

Im open minded when it comes to this ancient stuff, the thing with theories is that you can believe more than one is feasable.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Its only 765 years old I think the main body took about forty years to get up and running interestingly the footings are only about 1.2 meters deep because of the water table interesting they had engineer's and architects that could calculate it would be safe to build on such didn't quite have a long enough piece of string for a plumb bob that spire dont half lean over. Most of what Andy and the boys have been talking about referring to is a bit further back in time.
Don't care how they built stone henge your not telling me they went to all that trouble just for longest day solcest winter rubbish coz if that is the case what did they do before that. Dave

My maths is shocking LOL. All very true Dave. The footings are inspected by diver I think……though that could be Winchester, my memory is as bad as my maths…..it’s actually built on layers of rush matting and basically floats. …it’s all pounded into you from a very young age when you live in the city…..

The spire leans because the supports were designed for a lantern (a shorter square structure designed to let lots of light in), not a spire. The spire is much heavier and was added later and has significantly distorted the supporting stone, despite additional supports being added. It’s quite sobering to stand under the spire and look up the supports. They twist like wet string…..

We don’t know why they built the henge, or Avebury’s stone ring, or any other structure of its type and age, because written records don’t exist. it’s part of the fascination….trouble is, I find it hard to believe it was a Stone Age spaceport……all I was trying to say is that skills of the time we’re trade “secrets” passed on by word of mouth, and there is no reason to believe that hadn’t been happening for thousands of years.

The whole region around Stonehenge is part of the construction, by the way. It extends for miles in every direction and indicates that there was a large and complex society living around there, certainly large enough to build the henge. After all, the population of Salisbury was only around 7000 when the cathedral was built.

By the way, did you know there is a wood henge a few miles to the north west? It actually post dates Stonehenge. No one knows why that’s there either…my guess is that it was the high priests private garden LOL….

 

[David Lovell]

Hi Tim ,wasn't being pedantic or my usual wind up merchant self just even i thought 1000 years ?blimey. It is a magnificent building a few years back at the Salisbury model show i won the models for hero's best in show the prize was a trip for two up the spire unfortunately never got back to take it up. As for the rest of this discussion I think its just down to how open minded we want to be ,me I'm of the we are not alone groupe they cant prove a lot of things to be right by the same token they can't be proved wrong ,what I will say though I dont lose any sleep over it if I wake up tomorrow and there's aliens out side dont worry I will be the first to pm you with a big I bloody told you so stay safe buddy. Dave

 

[Gern]

Scientifically nobody seems to be pushing the envelope and making large leaps in knowledge, just moving it on incrementally.

Doesn't that happen everywhere? Sporting records don't usually change dramatically, but get better in small increments. The next world record for the 100m may only be a few hundredths of a second faster than the current record - it's extremely unlikely to be 2-3 whole seconds faster.

Same with science, once someone makes a breakthrough with a new theory, it takes years to investigate all the implications. Look at Darwin for example. There's not been a new 'Theory of Evolution' for over 150 years, but scientists have made many small breakthroughs in understanding the mechanisms - DNA and RNA for example - by which species change. Darwin only explained broadly 'why' they changed - now scientists are gradually finding out 'how'.

Maybe we just don't see new developments because they're incredibly complicated and don't emerge from laboratories or technical publications into our 'normal' day-to-day existence.

 

[wotan]

Here's my two penny worth. Why is it, probably since Newton and the enlightenment, humans have become fascinated by the questions how, and why etc. No one asks those questions of Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Bach, Blake etc etc. Human achievements will consistently amaze and do not require the invention of Aliens or other mystics to explain them.

Naive romantic
John

 

[grumpa]

Here's my two penny worth. Why is it, probably since Newton and the enlightenment, humans have become fascinated by the questions how, and why etc. No one asks those questions of Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Bach, Blake etc etc. Human achievements will consistently amaze and do not require the invention of Aliens or other mystics to explain them.

Naive romantic
John

John, how do you explain these obvious examples of "stone softening"? check out pics of the Aswan quarrie.
Especially the incomplete obelisk,
The establishment says it was being cut out with "pounding balls" made of stone when it was obviously softened somehow
and was being scooped out as easy as ice cream. The only stone balls involved in this theory are the ones rattling around in their heads.

 

[wotan]

Jim

Great photos but I have no requirement nor competence to explain them. I put them down to human ingenuity.

John

 

[Tim Marlow]

Doesn't that happen everywhere? Sporting records don't usually change dramatically, but get better in small increments. The next world record for the 100m may only be a few hundredths of a second faster than the current record - it's extremely unlikely to be 2-3 whole seconds faster.

Same with science, once someone makes a breakthrough with a new theory, it takes years to investigate all the implications. Look at Darwin for example. There's not been a new 'Theory of Evolution' for over 150 years, but scientists have made many small breakthroughs in understanding the mechanisms - DNA and RNA for example - by which species change. Darwin only explained broadly 'why' they changed - now scientists are gradually finding out 'how'.

Maybe we just don't see new developments because they're incredibly complicated and don't emerge from laboratories or technical publications into our 'normal' day-to-day existence.

True, and there has always been development work of this nature, but scientific knowledge also used routinely make big leaps. These days Alexander Fleming would have just thrown those dirty PetrI dishes into the bin……

 

[Tim Marlow]

John, how do you explain these obvious examples of "stone softening"? check out pics of the Aswan quarrie.
Especially the incomplete obelisk,
The establishment says it was being cut out with "pounding balls" made of stone when it was obviously softened somehow
and was being scooped out as easy as ice cream. The only stone balls involved in this theory are the ones rattling around in their heads.

There are many theories that could account for how this was done Jim, but they all suffer from the same problem. We simply cannot prove them. Great pub discussion topic though isn’t it….

Strikes me that if they were chipped out by hand though, the poor sap that chipped out the last bits underneath that held the stone up would really have drawn the short straw.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Hi Tim ,wasn't being pedantic or my usual wind up merchant self just even i thought 1000 years ?blimey. It is a magnificent building a few years back at the Salisbury model show i won the models for hero's best in show the prize was a trip for two up the spire unfortunately never got back to take it up. As for the rest of this discussion I think its just down to how open minded we want to be ,me I'm of the we are not alone groupe they cant prove a lot of things to be right by the same token they can't be proved wrong ,what I will say though I dont lose any sleep over it if I wake up tomorrow and there's aliens out side dont worry I will be the first to pm you with a big I bloody told you so stay safe buddy. Dave

Yep, the cathedral is a superb building. Must admit though, going to a school assembly there once a month for seven years made me a bit indifferent to it for years……appreciate it now though. It always amazed me how many people I met in Salisbury that had never been inside to have a look.
What year did you win? I may well have been there exhibiting with my railway group. We used to take a display case of kit built and scratch built stuff along to show what we did. I don’t think anyone ever asked us about it at all…..
Regarding proof, if the treens do turn up (the Mekon won’t come himself) you will be proved right, but if they don’t, I still can’t prove you wrong. :sleeping2:

 

[yak face]

Speaking of church spires , youre not telling me that this wasnt the work of aliens :smiling5:

 

[papa 695]

Speaking of church spires , youre not telling me that this wasnt the work of aliens :smiling5:

No Tony, just too much mead.

 

[grumpa]

Jim

Great photos but I have no requirement nor competence to explain them. I put them down to human ingenuity.

John

Those must have been some "humans" John, nothing like the pitiful dregs that slither about this Earth today who's main concerns are
who can I screw over and or abuse and kill.

Jim.

Just because we don’t know how they did it, doesn’t mean they didn’t do it Jim. I’m really not trying to be antagonist here, just putting a different viewpoint that you might find interesting…..

Let’s start with a couple of examples:

Salisbury cathedral is a highly complex structure that is over 400 foot high. It was built of masonry a Thousand years ago, using stone sourced from at least fifty miles away, and nobody really knows exactly how it was done. What is sure is that it was built using trade knowledge, animal muscle, and hand tools, because there wasn’t anything else around. Lifting some of the large blocks up to the spire must have been a hell of a task just using basic wooden structures and muscle.

Roman structures from a thousand years earlier, such as the Pantheon and the Coliseum were built using very similar techniques. They too are huge and very complex, and the stone used had to be mined, transported, accurately cut, and placed. Again, no one really knows how it was done.

However, as these structures were built during a time when written records exist about other “important“ events, no one really tries to say they were made by ETs engineering brother.

Stonehenge, built in the same area as Salisbury cathedral two and one half thousand years earlier, is constructed of very large chunks of stone. Some of the stone was sourced and moved from South wales, some eighty miles away, while the rest was sourced from the Marlborough downs, about twenty miles away. Some parts of this structure weigh up to fifty tons. Obviously they could move the close stuff, so they could also move the distant stuff. It just took longer. The stones are finely worked, using stone tools. The structure is held together with both tongue and groove and mortise and tenon joints, and the stones have been lifted accurately into place. We do not know how they did any of this, but we know they did, because the evidence is still there in front of our eyes.

Working techniques didn’t seem to change much between Roman and Medieval times, despite very little being written down. Is it therefore so inconceivable that these techniques could just go further back into pre history, being modified very slowly with experience, and passed on simply by word of mouth?

A lot of "no one knows" in there Tim. I haven't got into Roman Ruins yet and I bet I could do a bit of bone picking among them also.
The fact that almost nothing exists in any texts concerning the construction of almost all of these ancient structures seems a bit sureal.
One would think any culture that can perform such epic feats of precision construction with such hard and heavy materials would be proud of their work and thus
record for posterity their great accomplishments.......but nothing.
I'm sure many of these great creations were "inherited" by those who claimed them as their own, especially the so called "Pharos"
In their ancient texts they even speak of "Gods" building the Pyramids.
Plus any "post Pyramid" stone works in Egypt cannot even come close in quality, technical precision and sheer enormity as the old works.
What happened to them to make them regress in such a way from near "Godlike" entities to nomadic shepherds still living partially in the stone age
when first encountered by Europeans approximately 200 or so years ago.
These peoples styled themselves after the enormous statues and the garb they wore, not the other way around They "aped" these societal trends
like the naked apes we supposedly came from.

Many of the great architectural wonders of midieval Europe are spectacular indeed but man was much more advanced then and had
an understanding of physical mechanics, knew of and put to good use concepts of the wheel and pully systems, ramps, block and tackle and the lot.
Build a heavy enough transport wagon, strap enough horses to it, build some decent roads and I could see a plausible result.
There were many forests from which they could build basic derricks and crane like structures, scaffolding, corduroy roads and the like.
They were able to harness animal power as in the horse and oxen. There was a fertile and food rich environment in which to nourish the enormous crews
needed, indeed many a village popped up I'm sure surrounding the site.
The ancient Egyptians knew not even of the wheel and had no such lush and bountiful environment, no forests, very little agriculture
for North Africa has Been deserts for many millions of years before man. No way to feed such a huge mass of workers and no horses to do
any heavy hauling.
Even camels are not depicted in any of the ancient "carvings" but crocs and hippos are suggesting a time when the Sahara was a low lying
wetland. We only know of many prehistoric whales from their fossilized bones found deep in the Sahara interior, many hundreds
of miles from any present day sea. Many ancient crocodilian and amphibian species have been discovered under the sands.

A lot to fathom I know, I'm a "just the facts" sort of guy and I'm more confused every day

Jim.

 

[Airborne01]

....I love it when greater mortals, with a better command than me of the English language, use big words, clever phrases and talk dirty too!

More please.

Spanner Dear Chap,
One begs one's indulgence in the tardiness of one's response to your plaintive pleas, but the Debutantes Ball ( and concomitant shenanigans thereafter) have led me to this resolution: Interlocution and profanity may lead to the culmination of the recognition of one's ineptitude and, by extension, the demeaning of one's characteristic ability to express one's shortcomings in the field of visceral responses to external stimuli! (Whether positive or negative of course!)
I hope this helps Old Boy!
Steve (APC, BHiG, LOHS, (Ret'd)

 

[dalej2014]

Spanner Dear Chap,
One begs one's indulgence in the tardiness of one's response to your plaintive pleas, but the Debutantes Ball ( and concomitant shenanigans thereafter) have led me to this resolution: Interlocution and profanity may lead to the culmination of the recognition of one's ineptitude and, by extension, the demeaning of one's characteristic ability to express one's shortcomings in the field of visceral external responses to external stimuli! (Whether positive or negative of course!)
I hope this helps Old Boy!
Steve (APC, BHiG, LOHS, (Ret'd)

Most excellently, exceptionally and eloquently put!

 

[Tim Marlow]

Not going to go through this line by line Jim, but really think you need to reassess the”discovery” of Egypt by Europeans 200 years ago. Egypt was called the Roman breadbasket because its grain exports basically fed that empire, and Romans are Europeans……this also shows that the Nile delta was exceptionally fertile and could easily have fed the workers required.

Napoleon defeated the egyptian Mamluk army in 1798 at a battle by the great pyramid of Giza, by the way. During this battle one of his artillery gunners shot the nose off of the Sphinx

 

[stillp]

Most excellently, exceptionally and eloquently put!

One concurs.
Pete

 

[The Smythe Meister]

Most excellently, exceptionally and eloquently put!

EH?!!! :dizzy: