discussion To criticise, suggest or advise? THAT is the question!

[spanner570]

Over the last few days I've been exchanging P/Ms with a much respected member of Scale Models.

I asked him to make a no-holds barred assessment of my B.O.B. diorama. This he did and pointed out 3 areas which concerned him. Why I asked him is irrelevent to this thread.

His comments also included the fact that he notices quite a few errors ( call them what you will) in other builds, but doesn't like to 'Go public' for fear of offending the modeller. He also says that there is hardly any criticism, even suggestions, only heaps of praise for models posted here. Which they all rightly deserve but....

Why are people so afraid to openly criticise or even suggest a way of improving the model set before them?

I am not referring to rivet counters, we all have our opinions of them! More the average joe who sees something and would like to post his observations, but doesn't for fear of being classed as an R.C. himself.

I know of instances where people have resorted to P.M.s rather than post their suggestions. I'm guilty of that one, sir!

We have all seen things slightly out with all models, non are perfect. The one I see a lot of is mould seams on figures, yet I never post to say so 'cos I'm frightened to! Wrong I know because the modeller if told, will avoid the mistake next time around.

The only way we can all inprove is by being helped, so how about more constructive criticism and advise instead of backing off and just saying what a cracking build it is when you really would like to offer some help....

Please don't misinterpret my words here, I am making an observation not having a moan or anything like that.

Cheers,

Ron

 

[AlanG]

I see where you are coming from Ron. I prefer to have some suggestions/advice as to where i could improve my builds or if you think i've done something good then likewise i'd like praise. I know i'll never be IPMS standards but i like to think this old dog can still learn some new tricks along the way.

So bring it on and yes there has to be a limit on here after all, that's what makes this forum so friendly. But i for one don't mind a little encouragement about my builds.

 

[Guest]

Interesting Ron, and in a way, you are correct. I always praise the work i see here because as you all know im no expert in this feild and can not pick up on imperfections. Im sure as i go along i will stumble across these so called defects and be able to pick up on them. For example as im working on figures at the moment, i can see seems and joins and am working on filling and sanding as i go along. Now lets say to be fair that some people are aware of these imperfections but are quite happy to just carry on and ignore them. Then there are people who are very perticular in their build and everything has to be correct, like you and i for instance. Now with this in mind and taking both cases to account, critisism may be offensive and seem that one is judging ones capability, then on the other hand, this might be welcomed if it has genuinly been overlooked. I do understand exactly what you are saying Ron and know exactly what you mean. Some people just dont take critisism to well especially if they are aware of their mistakes.

It would be better by far if people asked more questions, the information they seek is stored in the members vast range of knowledge and experience and i always get an answer to every equestion that i have asked. I just hate to critisie anybodys work especially if they have put hours and hours into their pride and joy.

Andy

 

[stona]

I'll send a PM Ron ( as I did to you recently). That way I can point out something I've noticed privately rather than in public. I can only hope that the recipient will take it in the spirit in which it is intended. We are obviously operating in a virtual world in which it is much easier,inadvertently,to cause offence or upset someone. The last sentence of your initial post shows that you recognise this as,I'm sure we all do.

I can always take constructive criticism but some are thinner skinned and I'd hate to feel that I had made someone feel that their model was in some way not up to scratch,however erroneous their perception,particularly in public.

If someone wants to,and is confident enough, to later make a criticism/correction public,as you did,that's fine,it's up to them,not me!

As regards advice,I'll always give it (assuming it's something I know) when asked,but I'm lothe to volunteer it unsollicited because this again can be misinterpreted as telling someone how to build their model, something I'll never do!

One solution would be to have something like a "critique corner" where people could post their models with the INTENTION of receiving a somewhat more rigorous assesment of their effort. The trouble with this is that I for one would be a bit nervous about posting something there. One of the great things about this forum,as it stands, is that noone need worry about posting pictures of their efforts. We can all only build to the best of our abilities after all.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Guest]

I welcome comments and advice any time,its the only way that I will improve in the hobby. Most people wont say anything because it may offend the other person or party. We are all adults here but some dont like being criticised and thats part of life.

Tony..

 

[spanner570]

That's it in one Andy, no one likes to criticise or if truth were known be criticised. But if it is constructive, to the good and not offensive and nit picking then it should be taken in good faith.

I asked for my dio. to be ripped apart, but I can see that on occasions such an in depth study could, if not asked for, cause offense....

It is a very difficult one to answer, is it not?

To quote from a book wot I have.....

'No one minds criticism, except when it comes from family, relatives, friends or total strangers.' Perhaps in those words lies the truth!

Ron

 

[Guest]

Yes Ron, its a nightmare subject. We only learn from peoples advice, critisisum is advice that was not asked for. Quite how you d#get around it without offending people i dont know. One things for sure, we would all be better people for accepting it. We should have a rule. Everyone should be open to critisum and take no offence by it, noone is on here to judge people. Us long term memebers will be able to accept this but new members and the younger generation may not take to kindly. I honestly dont know the answer Ron.

Andy

 

[Guest]

I think the trick here is that a negative message can be given in a constructive and positive way but not everyone has the ability to do that. Consequently we end up with someone being upset because a critique has been too blunt and negative.

Another point is that using PM's doesn't benefit everyone else, but then again it takes quite a thicker skin to accept blunt criticism in public so as usual it is all down to the individuals concerned. It will be interesting to see more input from other members but one thing I would suggest is that when posting a build if a modeller wants to know what he can do to improve his model then he could specifically ask for that in his request. If members then think carefully about how they put the message across we might just get a bit more out of it.

 

[AlanG]

Or they could put on their posts of finished models 'Feedback welcomed'. I'd happily start doing this if it was a sort of unwritten rule that i don't mind feedback about the kit

 

[Guest]

This is a very interesting and relevant topic.

As a teacher myself I'm always looking for the right words for constructive critism. But being in the classroom, you learn to read students and can thus respond appropriately. However, here, we're all hiding behind a monitor and no matter how we give advice or critisise, someone could and always will, take offense. There's no way of knowing who's thick-skinned or rather sensitive.

In the past when i gave constructive critism to a post, it all depended on whether the post asked for it or not. Otherwise i wouldn't. And when i do in many apsects of my life and not just modelling, i prefer to make the critism in form of questions to reduce such a direct approach; what about ...? did you choose to...? But that doesn't suit everyone and k guess we have to be polite, open and objective as possible.

All in all i have improved my modelling skills in three ways

1) Practice

2) Doing research

3) Taking advice and critism so i'd have something to think about the next time.

Paul

 

[Guest]

This is a recurring subject and one that I know well from the world of photography forums.

It is difficult to say, in a positive way, that someones pride and joy is not up to it. In the world of photography, and I believe I have suggested the same on here, we had a specific "Critique Required" heading. If the poster put this on their thread then they are asking for, and can hopefully take, constructive criticism. The reader would have to suppose that if the post did not have such a flag then it was posted for fun and does not want critique or the poster does not feel confident enough to ask for and take what they may believe to be a broadside. At the end of the day, only the modeller needs to be pleased and only the modeller knows if they, as an individual, could have done better at that time.

One of the hardest things to do on a modelling forum is know if the modeller could have done better. If what they have done is the best they could have don, then it is a 100% effort no matter what we think of it. A lot easier in photography as there is little excuse for being a bad photographer if you put yourself up to be one. However, photography is, wether you agree or not, an artistic medium. Artistic is in the eye f the beholder so a soft, grainy portrait that is predominantly dark could be art or rubbish.

In the world of modelling, there is still a slight amount of artistic interpretation and personal taste that will colour anyones view of a completed model. It always make me smile when someone will rant on for ages about how a model is 2mm out in length and so they have gone to great pains to correct it. Then then place that same model on a diorama base with lichen and sand, neither of which would ever look in scale.

One of the hardest things to do is to write a constructive criticism. Very often, all we would do is write how we would have done it. That is not necessarily the right way, especially in a medium where there really is no 'right' way. I do believe that it is right to point out errors or things missed, seam lines as Ron mentioned is one of them. However, sometimes I have seen these in photographs of my ow work where I know I have scraped them off and they cannot be seen yet the curse of the modern camera in close up and there they are.

As I have said, I am always happy for people to pull me up where I have gone wrong and I am sure that most of us are. We do learn from this or should I say, we have to opportunity to learn from this. Remember that all criticism, no matter how positive, may be disregarded by the recipient if they don't agree.

My advice to anyone receiving a strong criticism is to do what I do. Accept it, consider it, if you agree act on it, or disregard it. But worse than getting a seemingly negative criticism is to have a well meant criticism rejected out of hand and rubbished. It works both ways.

I would never tell someone they were not right at something I could not do but I do feel that positive criticism is the way forward so long as it is well presented. Don't just say,something is wrong. You need to suggest that it may have been better to have done XXXX.

 

[Guest]

Nice post Graham

I would feel so uncomforable being blunt in critism. I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from perfect. We're here to support each other and how many people have maintained that this is the friendliest forum going? Pretty much everyone. With a bit of foresight, i don't think we'll have problems here

Paul

 

[Guest]

As with everything in life its how the criticism/advice is delivered, speaking for myself as a novice i need it to progress in my hobby, if i keep churning out model after model that only gets good feedback i'll rest on my laurels and soon lose interest. I always try to finish my threads with an invitation to say what you think good or bad.

No one wants to get a reply like 'looks nothing like it, its a load of s***" i know i wouldn't and i would never put that on anyone else's thread but a good constructive remark with no malice can go a long way in my book to make us better at our hobby.

Just my 2p's worth.

Darren

 

[yak face]

MMMM, good point ron mate, I think that in the spirit of this forum constructive criticism and feedback would be great, as long as we remember what the spirit is ie. the friendliest forum, no bitching or rubbishing anyone elses efforts. Im with allyne regarding the 'feedback welcome' tag at the end of our posts, i think this would make it very clear that the member posting was prepared to take fair criticism and not be offended, Cheers tony

 

[spanner570]

It seems we all more or less have the same idea as to what is acceptable or not regarding comments on posted models so can I suggest the following ideas.

A..Take up Steve's idea of a 'Critiques Corner'... I seem to recall such a thing when I had a blimp at other Forums. Here people post their models and in doing so accept there will be open but constructive opinions and suggestions and folks reading same would not consider the writer picky.

or

B.. Post their models as usual but add that fair and just suggestions are more than welcome......sort of thing.

It would be really nice to bury this thing once and for all and show the modelling world how we approach this subject...Square on and openly.

John, have you any thoughts on this old chestnut?

Cheers,

Ron

 

[Guest]

The single biggest problem with forum critique is that it is simply impssible to make obvious such things as

'tongue in cheek'

'sarcasm' and

'dry humour'

I have been critiscised, (well, flamed would have been a more accurate statement), recently on a motorbike forum I use simply for commenting on the fact that a painters website which was posted on a thread, was awfully designed, I mentioned first of all that the custom paint looked good, simply that the website was not user friendly in presentation, navigation and had a distinctly unprofessional look and considering that the painter in question was hoping to sell expensive custom paintwork logic dictates you MUST have a professional store front, (a website is after all the equivalent of your shop entrance).

I had some particularly unpleasant posts subsequent to this accusing me of all but industrial espionage.

Now my sole intention was to constructively critiscize the store front in the hopes the painter would be big enough to take this on board and maybe look at some of his competition and look to see where it could be improved.

Seemingly one or two others thought I was being overly critical, nasty? and this after the OP had, as his closing statement, heres the website, what do you think?

I find also that most people on here unsure about something will typically ask for help and advise during the build rather than complete a model and ask for someone to tell them whats wrong.

Personally I think an additional forum entitled

'models for critique'

would be the best way about it, then anyone posting in there wil be fully aware that all commentary good, bad or indifferent would be levelled at their model, I personally would use it for some models but not for others, some I build for fun and just don't care that the supercharger intake is 1 scale inch too short for the xyz f3 MkIIII trop turbo escort cosworth, others I look to building as accurately as I possibly can.

Incidentally, another example has occurred to me, I commented on a thread a couple of days ago regarding a Cosworth, (the above nonexistant model reminded me), I made mention of customising a model of a sierra entirely in jest, even adding a laughing smiley to reinforce this, purely because sensible replies had already been left and it seemed a funny thing to add to lighten the mood but clearly it touched a nerve as a follow up poster made a statement about a 'typical sierra and an RS500 cosworth Sierra being completely diferent!'

This highlights the point of intention not coming across in writing, in company it would have been far easier to get across the jesting nature of this particular comment.

I think the last thing any of us wish to do with such a wonderful and friendly forum is to turn it unintentionally into an unwelcoming and unfriendly one.

I scoured quite a few model forums before regsitering with this one, some of which were very scathing about builds.

 

[Guest]

what is the difference between a rivet counter and someone telling you that your cockpit is a shade too dark,there seems to be a very fine line between the two to me.i welcome critsism if it was asked for but i would not ask.i am not a good modeller(very new to this hobby) and my painting skills are better suited to the living room walls than a 1/72 jet plane, i know my efforts are bad and that i will improve with time but i would not like people telling me that, quite happy with my wife telling me that it looks good so she can carry on watching telly in peace lol. the critiques corner is a good idea.if anyone was to critisise my work they would get repetative strain injuries from all the typing on the keyboard.............i will add a big LOL

 

[Ian M]

T'is a sticky subject. I Know that some times I can really put my foot in it. I am painfully blunt at times and am often refered to at work as the grumpy git! This on the other hand does tend to make me think abit more about what I write. After all writing involves more thought than just opening ya gob and letting rip.

I must confess that I have notices the distinct lack of critique and have also come to the conclusion that many of the posts where a bit of 'help' or 'could of done this', are those threads with very few replies.

I have come with the odd comment before, (remember the tyres on your up turned truck Ron??). I would never slag a build or builder off, but if I see some thing that just pokes my eye out I say so. In a nice way.

When I post a build I expect comments, and I often get them too, both encouraging and helpfull suggestions. I often when posting a finished model say at the end of the post, some thing allong the lines of comments and suggestions welcome, or what do you think?

The start of a new forum: Critique corner. Dont think its a good idea, as things will end up lost, in the wronge section, or people will just stay out of it.

I'm All for the suggestion of people wanting help/critique/what ever simply say so either in the first post of the build, or at the end of the intro when they present it in the finished section of the relevant area.

 

[Guest]

Ron as always mate i do agree with what has been written here and i will also say that iam guilty of this as we all are i think, i for one always put in my posts all comment welcome good or bad because in the past things people have pointed out help me improve upon my skills. I also agree that some people are a little tense when constructive advice has been given, non of us know the full potential of the others here and as Graham mentioned if the person has put what they see as 100% into a piece of work then surely that little helping hand would encourage rather than dishearten but iam know this is not always the case. I like the the idea of a section where models are open to critique because then the only ones who would put there work there are the people who openly don't mind constructive advice, but this is would not mean misuse or abuse iam a member of another site that is now just a picture gallery because the critique section was being abused by mallicious people and has now been shut down. This is the best forum around and i for one would like to see it stay that way.

scott

 

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Ron

It's a difficult balance to achieve, honest appraisal or offensive criticism, and is open to abuse.

I agree with Scott, the last thing I would want is for this great forum to be turned into a picture gallery only and would therefore also recommend advice/criticism to be given when asked for. I think there's a danger otherwise of putting new modellers off if critiques were common practice. As M1ks says, it's incredibly difficult to gauge tone-of-voice in a post - you can use all the emoticons you want and you still won't convey the full meaning and intention in your message so there's a greater chance of misunderstanding.

Because this forum seems to so very well liked I would say that the balance is about right.

It is a difficult and contentious issue though.

Paul