discussion Bad Taste? Morality?

[Dave Ward]

I don't know if anyone has had doubts about diorama, I'm not talking about the possible offence of having a swastika on a nazi aircraft, or similar, but something a bit more fundamental. I've just acquired a 1/350 Flower Class corvette & I was thinking about a seascape diorama, involving the corvette and a sinking U-boat. As soon as I thought about this, I found myself questioning whether I could do this. OK, we model Military vehicle/planes/ships, all designed for the destruction of enemies, but showing the actual act of destruction? I don't think a diorama actually depicting the death of 50+men in a U-boat, or basically any death in model form can be done in a manner that isn't bad taste or calls your principles into question.
It's not something I've thought about before - has anyone else had these doubts about depicting certain scenes with models?
Dave

 

[Guest]

Don’t show the submarine as actually damaged and sinking, show it under attack with depth charges — who can say it didn’t survive? That would make it equivalent to this diorama:

View attachment 465548

… which I don’t expect many people to have an issue with, really.

 

[boatman]

Dave i think Jakoo right what he says an that way you can do your dio thats my opinion
chrisb

 

[Airborne01]

I personally choose to depict the 90% of a squaddy's existence - boredom, getting faffed about, boredom, hassle, slack moments, 'hurry up and wait ...' , boredom, admin, etc! Combat situations are intrinsically difficult to depict and I think that, apart from the moments of gallows humour', that are part and parcel of soldiering, the humanitarian and philosophical side of warfare may be more appropriate. Perhaps my time in the mob has slanted my perception but after all is said and done, in my opinion we must live with our individual viewpoints.
Steve

 

[Guest]

Can see your point Dave, in all my dioramas I've never shown bodies ,or any actual dying. Personally I don't want to show that part of war but quite happily depicted a Katyusha launching a strike .

 

[Airborne01]

Can see your point Dave, in all my dioramas I've never shown bodies ,or any actual dying. Personally I don't want to show that part of war but quite happily depicted a Katyusha launching a strike .

Dave ... or me John (Steve?) :tears-of-joy:

 

[outrunner]

Dave, I am sure spanner 570 (Ron) did something along those lines and no one objected.

Andy.

 

[Mini Me]

I've given this topic a lot of consideration over the years and have always recognized the horrors of war that lie just beneath the surface in just about every "action" dio I have seen. I have come to the conclusion that it is "strictly" up to the builder as to what he wishes to portray in his scene. Just as the artist puts his thoughts and views on canvas, we work in the 3 dimensional media that allows us to look at things from many different angles. I for one would not want to live in a World where there was no "freedom" of expression as to what one can and can't do in that regard.........I'm also pretty sure there have been some pretty ugly battles fought, with many lives lost over that very principal. War is Hell.

 

[wotan]

In my view there are two issues here. The first is what are you trying to depict? I will only consider the depiction of nobility, heroism, altruism etc etc. I see no value in gratuitous violence. The second issue is are you going to display and keep the finished work? In which case do you want to be surrounded by death and destruction in your displays or do you favour higher values. Everyone will have their own opinion however I know where my preferences lie.

John

 

[Ian M]

War is death. Lets not get Our hobby dragged into the cancel culture.

We have had and will hopefully continue to have some incredible diorama on here. Some of which have truly shown how war is.
Not every one wants to be so graphic in their depictions which is fair enough.

 

[Geoffers]

Hello Dave,

Perhaps a diorama of the U-boat sinking and the corvette stopped with boats in the water picking up survivors?

Probably less likely than the scenario you suggested but it may have happened on occasions. You would then be showing the brutality and compassion of war.

Modelling subjects that are used primarily as tools to kill is a tricky one if you start to unpick it too much.
I think it comes down to how you feel, if you feel uneasy then don’t build it.

Geoff.

 

[boatman]

HI Geoff they wernt allowed to stop an pick up survivors as they might get a torp them selves from another u boat but i think its a good idea an that way Dave can make his dio
chrisb

 

[The Smythe Meister]

Dave ... or me John (Steve?) :tears-of-joy:

He means YOU obviously Phil

 

[Neil Merryweather]

I thought about this with my French Napoleonic fusiliers. In my research of countless paintings, many of them show the wounded , the dying and the moment of death. I have decided that my model inhabits the same space, so whilst it is rather disquieting to be dwelling on it, it's part of the story and as such deserves to be addressed with equal care.
Obviously, it's my model,my opinion, but I agree we should not get our hobby dragged into the cancel culture.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Extremely difficult question Dave. Personally I think it comes down to what you are trying to depict. At it’s core it is what constitutes good and bad taste, with all the difficulties that has when it’s attempted to be defined.

An example on here at the moment is Neil’s supremely well sculpted Napoleonics. They show all the animation and movement of troops in a Napoleonic firing line, including casualties at the time of injury, but are on the “Good taste” side of the coin. They achieve this by not showing gratuitous blood and gore, but by just emphasising movement and confusion. The whole ensemble illustrates the confusion of Napoleonic war rather than the consequences of Napoleonic weapons.

To take your theme as an example, I’m minded of the scene in “Cruel sea” where Compass Rose has to depth charge the U boat hiding under the shipwrecked survivors. The scene works in the “good taste” remit because it focuses on the mental anguish of the Captain having to make the decision and leaves the effect of the depth charge on the survivors to the imagination. If it had shown the results on the survivors, mountains of water with bodies being blown apart everywhere, it would cross the line into gratuitous violence. It would dilute an extremely powerful and effective scene and just feed the audiences voyeurism.

This is the line you walk when including such scenes In dioramas. You have to decide which side you want to illustrate.

 

[Dave Ward]

Thanks all for the replies, obviously it's a topic which has been thought about by a lot of people. I guess it comes down to individual perceptions of what is acceptable.
After consideration, I've dropped the idea of an action diorama.............What may be on the cards is a depiction of ' Operation Deadlight ' where surrendered U-boats were scuttled at sea ( Nov 1945 )
A Hunt Class Destroyer ORP Krakowiak towing U-2337 out to be scuttled

Dave

 

[The Smythe Meister]

Thanks all for the replies, obviously it's a topic which has been thought about by a lot of people. I guess it comes down to individual perceptions of what is acceptable.
After consideration, I've dropped the idea of an action diorama.............What may be on the cards is a depiction of ' Operation Deadlight ' where surrendered U-boats were scuttled at sea ( Nov 1945 )
A Hunt Class Destroyer ORP Krakowiak towing U-2337 out to be scuttled

Dave

That picture, by itself,is pretty poignant Dave,(The Gloucestershire Dave !! )

 

[Geoffers]

HI Geoff they wernt allowed to stop an pick up survivors as they might get a torp them selves from another u boat but i think its a good idea an that way Dave can make his dio
chrisb

Cheers Chris, I wasn't sure if it actually happened for the good reasons you give.

A bit of artistic licence wouldn’t go amis though :thinking:

Geoff.

 

[Guest]

Dave I think it was the late Bill Hearne, or Roy Dilly that depicted a diorama of the Charge of the Light Brigade. And here you saw men dying, and horses dying. The diorama was well recieved at the time. Airfix magazine also ran articles based on the same theme when the new 'Greys' charging officer arrived.
I cannot see any objection when a modeller is trying to depict history and unfortunately death is part of history and the way you die. I for one do not object to depictions of death or dying if it is carried out in a form of 'art'. Christ on the cross, Damien Hurst and his half cow, or shark at the Tate Modern drew comments but once the 15 minutes of fame had died down life went back to normal.
So build the diorama and then let the comments tell you if you did the right thing or not - remember it is your work and your work alone.
Mike.

 

[PaulTRose]

Lets not get Our hobby dragged into the cancel culture.

which is what happened at Airfix over the years......if you remember their artwork from the 60's it was all aircraft in flames, getting shot down, dropping bombs.......the figure sets were all 'in action'......as i remember Roy Cross wasnt happy when they started to airbrush out things like bombs and flames from his art work......then they went to simply having a picture of the built model on the box....at least they have sort of got back to decent artwork these days