discussion A tale of two Hurricanes

[stona]

Time for some formation flying!





The two do have slightly different shapes. I'm afraid if you want someone measuring a millimetre here or there I'm not that guy. I would say that the Revell model (lighter coloured plastic) has a slightly bulkier or heavier look to it. The most noticeable other difference is in the shape of the fins, visible, I think, in the photos.

I have no idea which is 'right' or 'wrong', neither do I care. They both look like Hurricanes and if they were not sitting side by side I would be none the wiser :smiling3:

 

[stona]

The tale of two Hurricanes does continue, albeit slowly as I've been busier than I would like.

I have managed to get both aircraft primed and ready for some 'proper' paint, after a couple of minor fixes. Unfortunately, I am going to struggle to get that done in the next couple of weeks as I now find myself tied up with a bunch more famous for their make up than their music (and rightly so).



I would make a couple of observations. The surface detail on the Fly kit (on the right as we look) is much better than the Revell kit, though much is raised which may seem a bit old fashioned to some. Then there's the shapes. I haven't measured anything, nor do I have accurate plans of the Hurricane to reference, but to my eye the Fly kit just looks better, sort of, well, more Hurricane like. I could, of course, be completely wrong.

 

[stona]

A tale of two undersides!

The Fly kit is being built as Z2827 of the Malta Night Fighting Unit, coded as 'M', based at Ta'Quali in mid 1941. The kit instructions call for a Night (black) underside, which just seems wrong. There were some Hurricanes finished in overall Night, but images I have found of aircraft in this unit at this time (Q, E and M itself) don't seem to show any Night at all. Another good image of a related aircraft (K) absolutely definitely shows a light underside. Since there is agreement that the upper colours were Dark Earth and Mid Stone, the standard tropical colours, I have gone with Azure Blue, also standard. I wouldn't argue with Sky or even Sky Blue, neither can be ruled out. I didn't want two models with Sky undersides and I don't have any Sky Blue, which may have influenced my choice

The Revell kit will end up as Z3745 of No. 79 Squadron, coded NV-B at roughly the same time. This one is easy as it was in the standard Dark Earth and Dark Green over Sky of the Temperate Land Scheme.

 

[adt70hk]

A tale of two undersides!

The Fly kit is being built as Z2827 of the Malta Night Fighting Unit, coded as 'M', based at Ta'Quali in mid 1941. The kit instructions call for a Night (black) underside, which just seems wrong. There were some Hurricanes finished in overall Night, but images I have found of aircraft in this unit at this time (Q, E and M itself) don't seem to show any Night at all. Another good image of a related aircraft (K) absolutely definitely shows a light underside. Since there is agreement that the upper colours were Dark Earth and Mid Stone, the standard tropical colours, I have gone with Azure Blue, also standard. I wouldn't argue with Sky or even Sky Blue, neither can be ruled out. I didn't want two models with Sky undersides and I don't have any Sky Blue, which may have influenced my choice

The Revell kit will end up as Z3745 of No. 79 Squadron, coded NV-B at roughly the same time. This one is easy as it was in the standard Dark Earth and Dark Green over Sky of the Temperate Land Scheme.

Coming on nicely Steve.

ATB

Andrew

 

[stona]

Some more formation flying!

I've managed to squeeze a few hours in, though this might be it for a while.



Colour perception eh! That Dark Earth is the same; same paint from the same bottle, sprayed over the same black primer with a similar white pre-shade.

 

[Guest]

Looking good

I always found it odd that the European scheme is dark earth and green but the desert scheme is sand and dark earth, respectively — meaning the whole aircraft needed to be repainted. Was there a good reason to not keep the dark earth where it was and only overpaint the green with sand?

Edit: Only after having typed that, I notice that the dark earth is in the same place on both models … :rolling: Now where did I read that it wasn’t?

 

[Tim Marlow]

Looking good :smiling3:

I always found it odd that the European scheme is dark earth and green but the desert scheme is sand and dark earth, respectively — meaning the whole aircraft needed to be repainted. Was there a good reason to not keep the dark earth where it was and only overpaint the green with sand?

Edit: Only after having typed that, I notice that the dark earth is in the same place on both models … :rolling: Now where did I read that it wasn’t?

As I understand it, there was a type A and a type B Camo, depending on which way up the rubber masking mats were placed on the wings…..that could well be what you have mixed up.

 

[Andy T]

What a lovely pair. Great work on the camo.

 

[Neil Merryweather]

Oh VERY Nice!

 

[stona]

The A and B schemes were simply mirror images of each other.

The theory was that alternating aircraft on the production line would be produced in the two schemes. This does not mean that even and odd serials alternate (as legend has it) because aircraft were produced in serial blocks for security, meaning that though the aircraft were built in sequence the blocks have odd/odd and even/even sequences. Rather sadly I once trawled through Mason's production lists to prove this to myself!

In January 1941 the 'mirror schemes' were deleted to ease production. The first modification for this which I have found relates to Supermarine (mod. 303 for the Spitfire) and dates to April, though it seems to have been happening already on the lines. The manufacturers had to chose one or the other and whether in consultation or by chance went for the A scheme. Both Spitfires and Hurricanes produced after the beginning of 1941 were finished in the A scheme.

The Fly kit will be Z2827 (which might be wrong) which falls in a batch produced by Hawker between 14/1/41 and 28/7/41. It was most likely built in April-May, so A scheme.

The Revell kit will be Z3745 which falls in a batch produced in the same batch, but slightly later, around June. Also A scheme.

Incidentally, I'm one of those who thinks that masks were used, at least in some production. On the other hand, these outer wings look to have been sprayed, presumably to some kind of mark out, without masks. I think that the outline was sprayed and then filled in. The ailerons were clearly sprayed as separate items!

 

[Guest]

As I understand it, there was a type A and a type B Camo, depending on which way up the rubber masking mats were placed on the wings…..that could well be what you have mixed up.

No, that’s not what I meant. I know that was done, and stopped later in the war (with thanks to Steve for explaining the details) but when I was looking into British aircraft camouflage something like ten years ago, I read somewhere that the desert scheme had dark earth where the green was in the European scheme. Now to find that again, though …

Incidentally, I'm one of those who thinks that masks were used, at least in some production. On the other hand, these outer wings look to have been sprayed, presumably to some kind of mark out, without masks. I think that the outline was sprayed and then filled in.

Could well be that both are true: masks may have come in later, when manufacturers tried to speed up the painting, because (as I’m sure we as modellers know), it takes quite a bit of time to draw the camouflage before actually applying it.

As an aside, in the Dutch Army, vehicles were painted in three-colour NATO camouflage using rubber masks initially, but sometime in the 1990s, they changed to using overhead projectors to show where the colours on the front, sides and rear were to go, using masks only for the upper surfaces.

 

[stona]

Just by way of contrast, I think these must have been masked:

 

[stona]

Still doing these!

I've had a couple of early finishes over the bank holiday, meaning that this evening I've managed to complete the decals on one of the models (Revell). I have masks for this but in the spirit of fairness I've used the decals, as I will be doing on the Fly kit.

Upside down photo because the underside decals are still wet with decal setting solutions and have not settled down...yet..


These decals are very nice. They are thin but not so thin they become a nightmare to handle, and have reacted well to a regular setting solution (Microsol).

 

[stona]

I've started decals on the Fly kit.



Both sets of decals conform very well. I don't know who makes the respective sets, but for ease of handling and in every other respect the ones in the Revell kit are better.

 

[spanner570]

You're doing an excellent job on these aircraft my boy!

Your Servant.

Sir Sydney Camm. CBE, FRAeS (Dec.)

 

[yak face]

Beautiful work steve , they both look very tasty . Revell decals have been superb for years now , not sure who makes them for them but they never give any problems and are always beautifully printed , the stencils are readable even in 1/72 ! Cheers tony

 

[Ian M]

What a pair!
They are both looking most excellent.
Re the Revell decals. I believe they farm them out to cartograf in Italy.
Those wings in the racks look like some I could have painted.

 

[Ian M]

I am going to struggle to get that done in the next couple of weeks as I now find myself tied up with a bunch more famous for their make up than their music (and rightly so).

Music is very subjective. I go for the Keep It Simple Stupid.
He said tongue in cheek .

 

[Tim Marlow]

Both looking very Hurricane like Steve. Excellent builds. After reading Ian’s posts I revisited the wing picture. Not only does the pattern not match, the paint shades used are obviously different as well. One to keep in mind if the paint police come knocking I think…..

 

[stona]

Re the Revell decals. I believe they farm them out to cartograf in Italy.

I can't confirm Cartograf for Revell, because my remnant of the decal sheet (I always keep left overs) doesn't have that bit on it and the bin men came on Friday. Having used other Cartograf decals I can say that this sounds right.

The remnants of the Fly sheet just say Fly, I couldn't find any other information.

The Fly ones, with which I did have a bit of a fight, are nice and thin, but the larger ones absolutely do not want to move once on the model. This may also have something to do with the copious raised detail on the model. One of my 'Ms' is not exactly where I wanted it, but further efforts to shift it were going to cause more harm than good! The smaller ones, data stencils etc. are absolutely fine.

As general information, both react well to Microsol and I'm sure they would to any similarly potent setting solution.